Player banned

[Clint]

Just to inform the wider player base. We've just banned a player for cheating in a game. There's no particular need to go into details (what, who and why of it all) but just to make sure everyone knows that we will take action if we need to.

Thanks

Clint

[happymadcat]

Good call IMO!!! Erm, who was it? :)

[Dr Moriarti]

Cool, but how is cheating defined? I know what I consider cheating, but If you ban a player a clear defintion may be in place ?

[Diehard]

Cool, but how is cheating defined? I know what I consider cheating, but If you ban a player a clear defintion may be in place ?

I agree. The action that results in a ban should be common knowledge. All the other gory details (who, when, where, etc) are of no interest to me.

[Clint]

No that's okay. He broke the rules (check out the house rules and rulebook) - I'm not saying which one and if others want to comment they are welcome to but I'm not going to.

The guy has been punished enough I feel.

Clint

[Diehard]

Thanks for the clarification, Clint.

[VEO]

How can they break rules in the "rulebook"...that just explains the program...?

[thuiatt]

Read the house rules.

tim

[Celebion]

I am not sure of the exact house rule that was broken. I think a DS player slipped a "spy" to fill a vacancy of the FP side. He then had access to the FP website until 3 of us informed Clint that he could not have known the things he knew without FP intel. The game dissolved on T12 with 25 persons spending over 2k on a game that was ruined an unsavory sort.

Of course perhaps he was just clever given some of the comments in other threads.


Steve

[VEO]

"Caught" is by definition, not clever...

[Celebion]

"Caught" is by definition, not clever...

Not at all.

One can be "caught" for a myriad of reasons ranging from “dumb luck” to running into someone that is more clever.

[Blood&Guts]

The question to be answered is how clever is ME Games? What does "banned" mean? How can it be enforced? What is to stop someone from signing up as a new player under a pseudonym? For that matter, what is to stop someone from performing that same action and landing on both sides of the same game?

Sounds like there are some serious security issues here. Ever wonder how that perfect thing happened at just the right moment? Hmmmm...

[JB.]

They can track payment that is how. Credit card, check, etc all have names on it. The person could circumvent that, but its not something I see many doing for a game like this.

[Blood&Guts]

People feeling scorned will go to great lengths to ruin things. Why else do you think that the Arab world is so intent on killing?

[Another Darrel]

The bottom line is that anyone that has to cheat to win here....is probably about as pathetic of an individual as I can imagine. I mean, why not sit home and cheat at solitaire...serious mental issues there.

Anyone at the gaming club where I played...that pulled such a stunt would never live it down. To that point, old blood and guts...anyone caught like this would have to remain anonymous to not only ME games but to any future teamates....assuming he couldn't get them to go along with his reputation.

I for one would be SERIOUSLY angry if one of my teamates wrecked a game because they were such horrible players that they brought the team to the point where they couldn't possibly win honestly.

If they decide to only play neutrals in the future via an anonymous payment source then fine...that is just the loopy behavior that is fine for those types of games.

[Another Darrel]

People feeling scorned will go to great lengths to ruin things. Why else do you think that the Arab world is so intent on killing?

You have a seriously wide streak of paranoia.

I'd recommend finding a team and playing some grudge games with KNOWN teamates...it might help you feel better. Personally, I cannot imagine taking an unknown player onto a team.

[DaveHolt]

well, Drew will undoubtedly call me liberal for expressing such a feeling of comraderie toward fellow MEPBM'rs, but I actually like meeting new people in the MEBPM community, so I like the open games. Sure, they aren't the balls-to-the-wall strategic challenge of a grudge or GB game. But it is fun to meet new folks. Lots are newer players, and if you play with them, you can pass on some tidbits that help them improve. And surprise, surprise, sometimes they'll teach you a new trick or 2...

All that said, GB is my fav. All strategy and no communication... :-)

cheers all,
Dave

[Clint]

What is to stop someone from signing up as a new player under a pseudonym? For that matter, what is to stop someone from performing that same action and landing on both sides of the same game?

Sounds like there are some serious security issues here. Ever wonder how that perfect thing happened at just the right moment? Hmmmm...

Jason Mele - by the same way (and similar ways) that I found who you are under your 3 aliases, mam6705, Blood&Guts and Windlord.

Are we relatively competent at what we do... hmmmmm I think we are. If someone wants to create a real-world false ID, get Credit cards and pay us that way then I doubt that any level of security that we can come up with would stop them. But be realistic how likely is that? And if they did how would we ever know?

We did track down the guy who ran CTF after he did a runner with all his player's money so we have some contacts if we need them.

Clint

[Phlather]

Why tell us someone was banned????

who gives a crap.

And for those of you who do give a crap do something about it.

If you cant do something, then pipe down and either play MEPBM or not.

In the end its each individuals choice to play this game as is.



William

[smuller]

i agree that whats been described is pathetic. playing a side on both allegiances for an advantage. but, its nice to know when something that out of bounds occurs, your shown the door, reguardless of finance. its a business, but certain money is unwelcome.
sm

[Elf baiter]

In light of the various threads running re: rules and hypotheticals i can clearly understand why Clint has given this a wide posting minus specifics.

It's also nice to read the general response from players:D

As i've stated many times i like grudge formatt as i have had excellent experiences thus far with 'trusted' allies ie: team mates. You can get 'new' players on to many grudge teams as vancancies do arise over the many, many, many, years years it takes to get the games done. Just need referee's, usually players on the team that have played for/against in side games that liked your attitude. Skill and experience are generally not prerequisites it's a team game. Swap pdf's, check peoples orders and coordinate killing fields:p

Adrian

[VEO]

Read the house rules.

tim

The House Rules will point out how you can break "rules" in the 1650/2950/FA rule books? Just read them again, mostly admin stuff. Still can't see how a player can manifest behaviour against the "rules" as in my 7th Edition 1650. Highly interpretive, I expect....hey, anything can mean anything else, if you're a true believer.

Clint coming out and saying they've banned a player has no impact on me in gaming or real life. Mind you, if he starts banning players who don't transfer artifacts to teammates or forget to refuse challenge when facing the Dragon Lord, we might begin to see problems...but I doubt that's the case! I'm sure the person banned, well, no longer really cares, and the rest of us can continue to play the way we've been playing, secure yahoogroup or not~!

Brad B

[Blood&Guts]

[I]

If someone wants to create a real-world false ID, get Credit cards and pay us that way then I doubt that any level of security that we can come up with would stop them. But be realistic how likely is that? And if they did how would we ever know?

Clint

The point is that there are people out there who just like to ruin things for others. It would make me feel cozy to know that it would be difficult to do that here but it really isn't that hard to create a yahoo email address and borrow Auntie Ninnie's credit card.

Now how would we know? If we knew who they were and exactly what they did so that the COMMUNITY OF PLAYERS could keep a watchful eye for similar abuses or behavior.

[VEO]

Link on MEGames web site - Hall of Shame....

[Celebion]

For the record, I applaud MEG for what they did. The game ended some time back and I thought it was a dead issue. To their credit, they followed it through and made a ruling. I am generally critical of MEG’s handling of many situations but they deserve credit for this one, IMO


Steve

[Another Darrel]

Why tell us someone was banned????

who gives a crap.

And for those of you who do give a crap do something about it.

If you cant do something, then pipe down and either play MEPBM or not.

In the end its each individuals choice to play this game as is.

William

I am annoyed by your expressing your annoyance over other people expressing their annoyance. So pipe down and play MEPBM or not. :D

[Clint]

Now how would we know? If we knew who they were and exactly what they did so that the COMMUNITY OF PLAYERS could keep a watchful eye for similar abuses or behavior.

Okay what would you suggest Jason? Some players and people always do want to spoil things if they don't get what they want and even valid players will sometimes "throw their dolly from the pram". I know playing that I've had that desire LOL. :D We sometimes get husband/wife, friend/friend combos (etc you know the sort of thing) and those we occasonally investigate (ditto unusual activity). So we do a lot of "security" work.

I can't, nor do I want to, penalise that player more. I chatted to the players who were in the game and they are in broad agreement with the action taken here and they are the community affected are they not? As for the wider community that's upto you guys to keep an eye out. Note it's very, very rare, (was certainly more common in the past) so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Personally I don't want to punish players (or people) more than is appropriate and I feel this an appropriate level here.

Similar abuses - well just look out for unusual/unfair things going on. We get a couple of requests (mostly Gunboat) a month to check into something which we do. Occasionally a player has either not read the rules (mostly or claims to not have) or tried something on, got caught and gets penalised. Should I "out" all those players as well!!

What about suspected cheats? I don't think I'd like to go that way - feels a bit fascistic to me... :(

Tracking down this individual cheat took a lot of effort on my part and the player's involved. I know the player concerned and I'm pretty sure that he will never do it again. (At some point I'll let him back into the game when I think he's learned his lesson which is part of what punishment is all about isn't it?)

Clint

[Socrates]

If we cannot define cheating I suggest we grab a dictionary. The UN cannot define genocide either, maybe we should send them a Websters.
And to claim not to care, yet care enough to respond also displays a crack in our reasoning.
Ultimately the root of cheating comes from deep whithin.
If you are instantly looking for a loophole when rules apply what does that tell you about oneself?
I do not think this is the proper forum to work out such issues.
It is good Clint tells us, so we can also REFLECT and perhaps think twice when something 'feels funny'.
My thought is if you must rationalize, or hide, or twist something to expain why it is right...it probably is not.
My 2 cents...

[Blood&Guts]

Now how would we know? If we knew who they were and exactly what they did so that the COMMUNITY OF PLAYERS could keep a watchful eye for similar abuses or behavior.

Okay what would you suggest Jason? Some players and people always do want to spoil things if they don't get what they want and even valid players will sometimes "throw their dolly from the pram". I know playing that I've had that desire LOL. :D We sometimes get husband/wife, friend/friend combos (etc you know the sort of thing) and those we occasonally investigate (ditto unusual activity). So we do a lot of "security" work.

I can't, nor do I want to, penalise that player more. I chatted to the players who were in the game and they are in broad agreement with the action taken here and they are the community affected are they not? As for the wider community that's upto you guys to keep an eye out. Note it's very, very rare, (was certainly more common in the past) so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Personally I don't want to punish players (or people) more than is appropriate and I feel this an appropriate level here.

Similar abuses - well just look out for unusual/unfair things going on. We get a couple of requests (mostly Gunboat) a month to check into something which we do. Occasionally a player has either not read the rules (mostly or claims to not have) or tried something on, got caught and gets penalised. Should I "out" all those players as well!!

What about suspected cheats? I don't think I'd like to go that way - feels a bit fascistic to me... :(

Tracking down this individual cheat took a lot of effort on my part and the player's involved. I know the player concerned and I'm pretty sure that he will never do it again. (At some point I'll let him back into the game when I think he's learned his lesson which is part of what punishment is all about isn't it?)

Clint

The community is the body of all players, not just those in the game. Why else would others (and maybe it is just me) be so concerned?

Furthermore, this is a PBM, not a society seeking to rehabilitate malcontents and evildoers. DO NOT let that guy back into the game. This isn't about punishment. You run a business, and we are all consumers. We pay to play. We (and again, maybe its just me...) want a fair game, not a cheater rehabilitation program.

I suggest that if you catch someone blatantly cheating, cease doing business with them. Send an email to all the players (the community) alerting them to who it was and what they did. Rules are parameters, boundaries, and constants; not suggestions. When someone writes me a bad check, I blow it up and paste it to the wall in my shop. When it is large enough, I run an add in their hometown newspaper. I tell business associates what has happened. The purpose is to prevent it from happening again.

[VEO]

Rules are parameters, boundaries, and constants; not suggestions.

Is this a comedy bit?

[Blood&Guts]

Is this a comedy bit?

I hope you make that determination for yourself.

Thoughts?

[Elf baiter]

It's your game Clint (from the annoying management aspect, glad it's not my job to referee:) ) you and your colleagues made the call, published it and have looked to the future.
All is good IMO. We don't brand thieves, we don't cut liars tongues out why go past the Geneva standards??
It's a game. If the guy/girl is a serious gamer who has been v.naughty, they'll want to come back, be a little less "clever' and try to maintain good rels with the ME dudes and show they are worth letting back. If not they will just disappear and annoy other people in other games.

I think we've flogged this horse.
It's clear what the crime was, investigation complete, perp prosecuted, sentence handed, possible parole in the future. Case closed.

Adrian

This is getting like reading through Hansards ;)
'And then the witness stated " well guv'na it happened like this....."'