DGE meets Harlequin [Archive] - Middle Earth Play-by-Mail

Clint Oldridge

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

Well we have finalised the player lists and almost exactly doubled our
player list. I am still a bit surprised that the DGE list was effectively
so small (we compare with Midnight who have twice a player base of ours for
Legends and the same for AGE's games as well) but with some hard work I
expect we can get some more players to join the game.

Any thoughts?

Long term plans include:

1) Getting the Front Sheet organised properly

2) Input program automated

3) Amalgamation of FS and Resultsheet into one item for ease of reference

4) World domination, then extra-terrestrial, followed by extra-solar...

There are some other plans but they are a little too far fetched at present
..... :-)

All I have to do now is check out the new games and get the (latest version
and hopefully last) House Rules out to everyone. (Thinks - must have got
addicted to work over the last month or so!)

Clint

Fri Jan*12,*2001 9:47*am
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DGE meets Harlequin

Well we have finalised the player lists and almost exactly doubled our player list. I am still a bit surprised that the DGE list was effectively so small (we...

Clint Oldridge
allsorts@...

Jan*12,*2001 9:50*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

.... our ... effectively ... ours for ... work I ... A lot of americans had been picking up Harlequin games; I'm not surprised that the player pools are...

Marc Pinsonneault
pinsonneault.1@...

Jan*12,*2001 11:48*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

I think the best you can do to help replayability and keeping new players is to address the 66% win percentage of the DS teams in 1650, (it seems to be the...

Alan Hamilton
jhamil00@...

Jan*12,*2001 12:12*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

.... players is ... to be ... ...and instead of tinkering with the rules, experiment with the setup and/or encounter tables. If agents seem too powerful, give...

Marc Pinsonneault
pinsonneault.1@...

Jan*12,*2001 12:59*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

.... seems ... setup ... It's been my experience that the more seasoned players play DS. I'm inclined to think that has a major impact on results. I'd rather...

ggiacoppe@...

Jan*12,*2001 2:58*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

Message text written by INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com ... surprised that the player pools are comparable. *** Some 40 players were from DGE before hand I...

Clint Oldridge
allsorts@...

Jan*12,*2001 1:05*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

I have reguarly seen experienced players play the DS over the FP - this might count for some of those issues. Also the way that Agents have altered should...

Clint Oldridge
allsorts@...

Jan*12,*2001 1:05*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

.... this ... appropriate? Dragons are horribly abused. They weren't meant to be a tool of the DS but just a chance encounter with many different possible ...

facade
kzfoul@...

Jan*12,*2001 11:04*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

That's a an excellent point, I never realized it before. You are absolutely right, the FP are very dependent on those nations, where the DS are not. And in...

JeremyRichman@...

Jan*13,*2001 10:39*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

One early key advantage the DS have over their FP opponents is the number of chararters that start in their capital on turn one. The best the Free's have is...

lucas cuccia
lucasc68@...

Jan*14,*2001 6:54*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

Good points; having fewer chars at the capital is definitely a handicap for the FP. (BTW, in the original version the Eothraim did not start with even one...

JeremyRichman@...

Jan*14,*2001 6:58*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

Yes - we can always do a varient game if that suits players. As for changing the original balance one way to check is to create a group of games whereby teams...

Clint Oldridge
allsorts@...

Jan*12,*2001 1:16*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

.... of ... sort of ... have ... due to ... not sure ... Here is some 2950 feedback from completed games. I've been in 87 and 109 as a standby; 85, 88, 97, 99,...

Marc Pinsonneault
pinsonneault.1@...

Jan*12,*2001 2:12*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example: Out of 25 players in a game: 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations 2) Same for the 10 FP 3)...

paul86blue13@...

Jan*12,*2001 1:41*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

.... seeing "game systems inc." on my turn was a bit of nostalgia - fixing the font issue should be easy now (the dgi and gsi turns have a nice font on the...

ggiacoppe@...

Jan*12,*2001 2:54*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

I think this has a lot to do with experienced players recognizing which side has the most versatility and options. We can make hypotheses all day about why the...

Alan Hamilton
jhamil00@...

Jan*12,*2001 6:50*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

Speaking as an experienced 1650 player who almost always chooses the DS, the reason is simple. The DS have much more interesting nations to play, IMO. They ...

JeremyRichman@...

Jan*12,*2001 7:19*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

.... I find the DS more attractive to play. The Nazgul are pretty cool. But I choose the Free now. Why? Because I feel any game I am in as a DS is basically an...

facade
kzfoul@...

Jan*12,*2001 11:20*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

I still find the DS a challenge, but the challenge is not so much about winning but rather finding new and bolder ways to play the position. Some time ago I...

JeremyRichman@...

Jan*13,*2001 10:47*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

Losing a character to a random encounter is really a pain. I wouldn't mind putting in some randomizing into dragon encounters but I'd like the results of a...

JeremyRichman@...

Jan*12,*2001 7:21*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

I'd have to agree in that FP victory being determined so heavily by SG, NG, and the EO; and the DS being much more independant of the level of the play of...

Alan Hamilton
jhamil00@...

Jan*13,*2001 1:42*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

LAS limits agent activity on both sides, and this changes the aspect of the game that many people enjoy. While I think having LAS games available would be...

Alan Hamilton
jhamil00@...

Jan*13,*2001 1:54*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

If you are making a connection, I am not grasping it. I agree that LAS would change the game somewhat, but it doesn't eliminate kidnapping and assassinations, ...

JeremyRichman@...

Jan*13,*2001 10:55*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

Very good point. making minor adjustments until balance is restored seems to be the best way to go. My only thought would be, rather than simply weakening...

Winn Keathley
Gnaeus@...

Jan*13,*2001 9:40*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

All, Winn makes very good point here regarding the cost of playing. I have seen different scales of turns fees applied successfully within games, e.g....

Shaun Walker
shaun_walker@...

Jan*13,*2001 10:50*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

Yes, it really doesn't matter how the game is adjusted toward more balanced games, the reason dragon encounters are usually big favors in the 'things to ...

Alan Hamilton
jhamil00@...

Jan*13,*2001 11:39*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

DGE did one or two LAS FA games with no kidnapping and no assassinations. Atleast that was what the message base indicated...

kurgan
kurgan@...

Jan*13,*2001 3:39*pm



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

This sounds great! I wish... :-) We could do it in FA with some standard nations - some emulating the DS that are in the game in 1650 already and then some...

Clint Oldridge
allsorts@...

Jan*14,*2001 12:23*am



Re: DGE meets Harlequin

This is the sort of thing we could do by hand. Clint Message text written by INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com ... Very good point. making minor adjustments until...

Clint Oldridge
allsorts@...

Jan*14,*2001 12:23*am

Marc Pinsonneault

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, Clint Oldridge <allsorts@c...> wrote:
> Well we have finalised the player lists and almost exactly doubled
our
> player list. I am still a bit surprised that the DGE list was
effectively
> so small (we compare with Midnight who have twice a player base of
ours for
> Legends and the same for AGE's games as well) but with some hard
work I
> expect we can get some more players to join the game.
>
> Any thoughts?
A lot of americans had been picking up Harlequin games; I'm not
surprised that the player pools are comparable.

Like it or not, the financial incentive for the game winner certs
probably encourages replay. I'd encourage you to consider issuing
them, or maybe even free setups (2 turns) for members of winning
teams; the GWCs could also be used for capital insurance in 4th age.
This may seem like a financial drain, but it is equivalent to the sort
of sales that are routinely used to draw in new business.

Pair new players up with experienced mentors in the same game. Do
this before they select nations so that they can get some advice on
which nations to pick. e.g. if they're doing 1650 and want to be a
free nation, check if there is a free player in the game who has
indicated they'd be willing to be a mentor.

If victory points aren't used for individual wins, make them useful in
some other way. Two ideas would be
1) publish the individual ranks in all four categories each turn, eg
you are #15 in pops, #11 in gold, #3 in armies
2) normalize the scores in each category relative to the top nation
and give an idea of relative standing. If the top gold is 100,000 and
you have 10,000 you'd have a gold score of 10/100.

These would allow capable teams to reconstruct how well they're doing
relative to the other side (hmmm...no free armies; or hmmm...the dark
have no gold.) They could also be used as a measure of how well
nations are doing compared to the pack, especially handy for newer
players.

If you will use the scores for something, revise the individual VCs so
they reflect actions that actually contribute to defeating the other
side. EG destroy (or capture) more than xxx opposing population
centers, defeat more than xxx enemy armies, steal more than xxx gold,
ship out xxx more gold than you receive to allies, and so on.

I'd also like to see scores relative to the same nation in other
games, as a handicap to the Noldo-types of Middle earth and an asset
to the Woodmen-types.

Marc Pinsonneault

> Clint

Marc Pinsonneault

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...> wrote:
> I think the best you can do to help replayability and keeping new
players is
> to address the 66% win percentage of the DS teams in 1650, (it seems
to be
> the most popular scenario).

....and instead of tinkering with the rules, experiment with the setup
and/or encounter tables.

If agents seem too powerful, give the free a few better starting
agents and/or some more agent artifacts. Give the northmen a starting
40 emissary (as per 2950.) Make dragons recruitable only with
high-rank characters, so that the dark can get them but have to use
their better characters instead of 30 rank emmys to do it.

2950 has a more balanced reputation, but in adding up the win/lossses
that I know about I'm afraid it may be 2-1 dark as well. In
2950 dragons are less important and the agent battle is much more
even, which leads to the theory that the imbalance has a lot to do
with which sorts of players pick which positions.

I'll note that on the Deft boards we have had some interesting points
made on 1650 balance - namely, that with top-rank players on both
teams the 1650 dark have a very uphill battle. I'd be interested in
what people think on that issue; it colors what if anything Harlequin
should do.

cheers,

Marc

Marc Pinsonneault

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, Clint Oldridge <allsorts@c...> wrote:
>
> Yes - we can always do a varient game if that suits players. As for
> changing the original balance one way to check is to create a group
of
> games whereby teams play against each other so that there are some
sort of
> basis. Part of the reason to do the World Champs was for this. I
have
> heard a lot about what the preceived balance of the game is - but
due to
> the way games are filled and the recent change with Agents - I am
not sure
> what is accurate and what is just random factors.
>
> Clint
Here is some 2950 feedback from completed games. I've been in 87
and 109 as a standby; 85, 88, 97, 99, 100, 101, 108 from the start.
The free won 87, 100; the dark won 88, 97, 99, 101, 109. 85 was a tie
(computer disk corrupted, even game at turn 30.) If you can add some
2950 win/loss stats and some 1650 win/loss stats we can see what the
overall balance is. The free wins were early runaways, finished in
about 20 turns against disorganized opposition.

The single thing that stands out the most is that the fate of the free
in 2950 depends a lot on the play of the frontline nations, much as in
1650. The biggest difference, and my single setup change suggestion,
concerns Northern Gondor.

I have never seen Northern Gondor do well in 2950, and I have never
seen NG break through the Ithil pass. The Mordor fortifications are
too tough to take out with the small armies and population base at
game start, and the dark agents inevitably shut NG down between turns
5-8. So - unlike 1650 - Northern Gondor is faced with a CERTAIN
losing opening battle. While they are fighting (first few turns) and
getting slammed by agents (turns 5-10) everyone else is building up
their nations...which results in a crippled NG by turn 10 with no
economy and a few characters staring across a blown bridge at the dark
in Osgilath. This is true *even in games that the free easily win*.
I think this suggests a genuine problem in an important position,
since it has happened even for decent players on solid teams that won
easy victories.

The result is not surprising: those with game experience avoid the
2950 NG like the plague. You don't get the massive 1650
armies/economy, and the position is really even worse than the dragon
lord: you will lose Osgilath no matter what and you will limp along
for most of the game. Believe it or not, the 2950 Woodmen are a
better position with higher scores. At the same time, it is crucial
to the free to put in a good effort. If you make the dark fight you
with lots of troops, send their agents there, etc. then the rest of
the team can build up, conquer the north, and keep the dark servants
broke.

So: give northern gondor a *much* larger economy. With the 12
character limit they can't raise a lot more troops, but this would
keep the nation competitive longer and compensate for the lack of
camps. Once 3024 falls and the bridge goes down, NG could recover
faster. Double the size of the position, putting the new population
centers (villages/towns) far enough west to avoid imbalancing the
Ithil pass fight. This would also encourage the power gamers to give
the position a try, rather than writing it off to some unwary new
fellow.

cheers,

Marc Pinsonneault

ggiacoppe@...

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

> Any thoughts?
>
> Long term plans include:
>
> 1) Getting the Front Sheet organised properly
>
> 2

seeing "game systems inc." on my turn was a bit of nostalgia -
fixing the font issue should be easy now (the dgi and gsi turns have
a nice font on the first result sheet saying mepbm)

ggiacoppe@...

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Marc Pinsonneault"
<pinsonneault.1@o...> wrote:
> --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...> wrote:
> > I think the best you can do to help replayability and keeping new
> players is
> > to address the 66% win percentage of the DS teams in 1650, (it
seems
> to be
> > the most popular scenario).
>
> ...and instead of tinkering with the rules, experiment with the
setup
> and/or encounter tables.
>

It's been my experience that the more seasoned players play DS. I'm
inclined to think that has a major impact on results. I'd rather see
a table showing winner/losers in grudge games, it would at least help
get the player experience out of the equation.
another point would require collating the data after each of the rule
tweaks that GSI/DGI did engage in...

JeremyRichman@...

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

Speaking as an experienced 1650 player who almost always
chooses the DS, the reason is simple. The DS have
much more interesting nations to play, IMO. They
have much more exciting characters and more interesting
and exciting military challenges. Militarily/economically
they always feel like the underdog, which makes them
more exciting.

The exceptions to this (also IMO) are the Sinda,
who's nation setup is closest in military challenge
and character excitment to the typical DS. Although
I've played the Woodmen, Northmen, Eothraim,
and Arthedain, and Noldo, I wouldn't play any of
them again. But I'd play the Sinda.

The other reason of course for not playing the FP
is that it is no fun getting hammered by assassins
and kidnappers.

How about an LAS 1650? That would mean no double-scouting,
no +20 for the CloudLord, and no stealth-rank bonus.
For each nation that had one or two of those abilities,
find some replacement ability for them. Instead of
double scouting, give +20 to scout. Instead of stealth
rank bonus give challenge rank, and instead of +20 k/a,
give something powerful. Either a hidden popcenter (cost
is similar in FA) or whatever. That still doesn't
make up for the other things that make the DS more
exciting, but it would be a start.

Jeremy Richman

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...> wrote:
> I think this has a lot to do with experienced players recognizing
which side
> has the most versatility and options. We can make hypotheses all day
about
> why the DS win 2 out of 3, but it doesn't change the fact that
they're
> winning 2 out of 3. I would begin with minor changes over time until
the end
> statistics begin coming out more even. I'd personally like to see
the dragon
> encounters randomized to add an element of risk in recruiting them,
however
> it doesn't really matter what you change as long as it works toward
a more
> evenly matched game. If you feel experienced players being attracted
to the
> DS is what throws the statistics, then you should seek ways to
attract
> experienced players to the FP side, there must be something lacking
there
> that experienced players crave, probably because they have the most
> interesting characters(thats why I would prefer DS, however it would
not be
> very difficult to poll the experienced players that you see choosing
DS over
> FP).
>
>
> >From: Clint Oldridge <allsorts@c...>
> >Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> >To: "INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com" <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> >Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] DGE meets Harlequin
> >Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:04:01 -0500
> >
> >I have reguarly seen experienced players play the DS over the FP -
this
> >might count for some of those issues. Also the way that Agents
have
> >altered should affect things. Not sure what else would be
appropriate?
> >
> >Clint
> >
> >Message text written by INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > >
> >I think the best you can do to help replayability and keeping new
players
> >is
> >to address the 66% win percentage of the DS teams in 1650, (it
seems to be
> >the most popular scenario).
> ><
> >
>
>

JeremyRichman@...

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

Losing a character to a random encounter is really
a pain. I wouldn't mind putting in some randomizing
into dragon encounters but I'd like the results of
a wrong answer to not be so lethal.

Jeremy

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...> wrote:
> I think this has a lot to do with experienced players recognizing
which side
> has the most versatility and options. We can make hypotheses all day
about
> why the DS win 2 out of 3, but it doesn't change the fact that
they're
> winning 2 out of 3. I would begin with minor changes over time until
the end
> statistics begin coming out more even. I'd personally like to see
the dragon
> encounters randomized to add an element of risk in recruiting them,
however
> it doesn't really matter what you change as long as it works toward
a more
> evenly matched game. If you feel experienced players being attracted
to the
> DS is what throws the statistics, then you should seek ways to
attract
> experienced players to the FP side, there must be something lacking
there
> that experienced players crave, probably because they have the most
> interesting characters(thats why I would prefer DS, however it would
not be
> very difficult to poll the experienced players that you see choosing
DS over
> FP).
>
>
> >From: Clint Oldridge <allsorts@c...>
> >Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> >To: "INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com" <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> >Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] DGE meets Harlequin
> >Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:04:01 -0500
> >
> >I have reguarly seen experienced players play the DS over the FP -
this
> >might count for some of those issues. Also the way that Agents
have
> >altered should affect things. Not sure what else would be
appropriate?
> >
> >Clint
> >
> >Message text written by INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > >
> >I think the best you can do to help replayability and keeping new
players
> >is
> >to address the 66% win percentage of the DS teams in 1650, (it
seems to be
> >the most popular scenario).
> ><
> >
>
>

facade

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, Clint Oldridge <allsorts@c...> wrote:
> I have reguarly seen experienced players play the DS over the FP -
this
> might count for some of those issues. Also the way that Agents have
> altered should affect things. Not sure what else would be
appropriate?

Dragons are horribly abused. They weren't meant to be a tool of
the DS but just a chance encounter with many different possible
results. The cheat lists have made them into an endless +30,000
combat artifacts for the DS. A fix here is needed. Perhaps make them
an 'invisible' encounter. One that doesn't announce itself on pop
center reports thereby creating the Misty mountain camp
placement/dragon recruitment strategy. Fix this first and then see if
any other balance issue fixes are needed.

Better players do pick the DS positions. Why? Well for one they
are cooler. But mostly people pick them because it is easier to play
and to win as a DS. The Free must play well to win. The DS need not.
All the DS need do is survive long enough for their
agents/dragons/curse squads to take over the game.

The Free have two major problems that make them unattractive to
people playing to win. The success of the Free is for the most part
determined by only 3 of their nations, the Gondors and the Eothraim.
To do well the Free must do a lot of damage early in the game. Which
means they need good play from their frontline positions. If any of
these 3 drop early or just play badly it's going to be very hard for
the Free to win. It makes little difference how well Arthedain,
Cardolan and the Noldo are playing if NG rolls over. It is also very
unappealing to have your nation slaughtered off by agents. This just
isn't fun. It is hard and often frustrating to play the Free and many
games are determined by play or non-play by nations other then your
own. The Dark Servants don't suffer from this problem. Bad or
nonexistant play from any DS nation, while not something you want,
doesn't impact the game as greatly as NG sitting out the war. One bad
player won't lose the game for the DS. One bad player does often lose
the game for the Free.

facade

facade

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
> Speaking as an experienced 1650 player who almost always
> chooses the DS, the reason is simple.

I find the DS more attractive to play. The Nazgul are pretty cool.
But I choose the Free now. Why? Because I feel any game I am in as a
DS is basically an automatic win. Even if I'm in a game with a bunch
of new players as long as they are willing to listen and talk I feel
confident that we will be able to provide enough of a coordinated
defense to survive long enough for our agents to take over the game.
Unless the Free play spectacular I don't believe they have any chance
in a game where the DS play as a team. Winning as the DS isn't a
challenge for an experienced player.

facade

Alan Hamilton

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

I'd have to agree in that FP victory being determined so heavily by
SG, NG, and the EO; and the DS being much more independant
of the level of the play of their companions is a huge factor. The group
of people I'm playing in a team game with currently played and lost
as the DS about a year ago. The Quiet Avenger made some errors
early and went out before turn 4, the Ice King was a new player
failed to get a turn in, went out on turn 3 at the latest, the Witch King
dropped on turn 2, two neutrals got taken out early on, the other three
went FP.Still after all of these early game catastrophies,
they held out long past turn 20 before conceiding, with little doubt that
they could have drug it out another 10-15 turns before complete military
defeat. They held out this long largly due to the generating of dragon
encounters. While I'm sure they FP made errors(there are always some)
, it was nothing on the magnitute of what the DS suffered, and they had
no business being in that good of shape for that long.

While there are some FP positions that are less critical than others,
without some sort of strong showing early on, you guarantee the DS
surviving long enough to completely dominate you in the agent war, and
all your military superiority will mean nothing when the dragons are devouring
the armies that the agents don't get. The DS just have better characters,
which were meant to be a counter to the numerical superiority of the FP armies,
however Dragon farming has taken to much of this away.

So basically, to win the FP have to have an advantage in some form or another
thats independent of the game. They either have to hope there are mass screwups
on the opposing team, or they have to have an insane level of cooperation and pray
that their opponents do not have the same. I personally find it discouraging going
into a game knowing that the other guy has to play under par for me to win.

I would be interested in playing a trial run game or two if one were to be set up, in
which the dragon encounters were randomized(manually if necessary). We can
blame anything we want for game imbalance, but its just talk until its tested. The
dragon encounters may be a bit to fatal for some, but I don't think its unreasonable
to have the escape unhurt/hurt static option that works for both sides with4 other
possible responses that result in random results so that they're not just roaming
character killers.
From: facade
To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 11:04 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin

Dragons are horribly abused. They weren't meant to be a tool of
the DS but just a chance encounter with many different possible
results. The cheat lists have made them into an endless +30,000
combat artifacts for the DS. A fix here is needed. Perhaps make them
an 'invisible' encounter. One that doesn't announce itself on pop
center reports thereby creating the Misty mountain camp
placement/dragon recruitment strategy. Fix this first and then see if
any other balance issue fixes are needed.

Better players do pick the DS positions. Why? Well for one they
are cooler. But mostly people pick them because it is easier to play
and to win as a DS. The Free must play well to win. The DS need not.
All the DS need do is survive long enough for their
agents/dragons/curse squads to take over the game.

The Free have two major problems that make them unattractive to
people playing to win. The success of the Free is for the most part
determined by only 3 of their nations, the Gondors and the Eothraim.
To do well the Free must do a lot of damage early in the game. Which
means they need good play from their frontline positions. If any of
these 3 drop early or just play badly it's going to be very hard for
the Free to win. It makes little difference how well Arthedain,
Cardolan and the Noldo are playing if NG rolls over. It is also very
unappealing to have your nation slaughtered off by agents. This just
isn't fun. It is hard and often frustrating to play the Free and many
games are determined by play or non-play by nations other then your
own. The Dark Servants don't suffer from this problem. Bad or
nonexistant play from any DS nation, while not something you want,
doesn't impact the game as greatly as NG sitting out the war. One bad
player won't lose the game for the DS. One bad player does often lose
the game for the Free.

facade

Alan Hamilton

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

LAS limits agent activity on both sides, and this changes the aspect
of the game that many people enjoy. While I think having LAS games
available would be nice(I'd play a couple), I wouldn't want it to be the
standard for all games I play. If game balance was achieved in some
fashion or another, I think experienced players that prefer a military
game would gravitate more toward the FP who can field multiple
massive armies, while those that enjoy the character building aspects
of the game would be more attracted to the DS. While there are military
DS nations, and character FP nations, the DS are weighted more
character wise, while the FP are weighted more heavily in recruiting
power and economy.

----- Original Message -----
From: JeremyRichman@...
To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 7:19 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin

Speaking as an experienced 1650 player who almost always
chooses the DS, the reason is simple. The DS have
much more interesting nations to play, IMO. They
have much more exciting characters and more interesting
and exciting military challenges. Militarily/economically
they always feel like the underdog, which makes them
more exciting.

The exceptions to this (also IMO) are the Sinda,
who's nation setup is closest in military challenge
and character excitment to the typical DS. Although
I've played the Woodmen, Northmen, Eothraim,
and Arthedain, and Noldo, I wouldn't play any of
them again. But I'd play the Sinda.

The other reason of course for not playing the FP
is that it is no fun getting hammered by assassins
and kidnappers.

How about an LAS 1650? That would mean no double-scouting,
no +20 for the CloudLord, and no stealth-rank bonus.
For each nation that had one or two of those abilities,
find some replacement ability for them. Instead of
double scouting, give +20 to scout. Instead of stealth
rank bonus give challenge rank, and instead of +20 k/a,
give something powerful. Either a hidden popcenter (cost
is similar in FA) or whatever. That still doesn't
make up for the other things that make the DS more
exciting, but it would be a start.

Jeremy Richman

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...> wrote:
> I think this has a lot to do with experienced players recognizing
which side
> has the most versatility and options. We can make hypotheses all day
about
> why the DS win 2 out of 3, but it doesn't change the fact that
they're
> winning 2 out of 3. I would begin with minor changes over time until
the end
> statistics begin coming out more even. I'd personally like to see
the dragon
> encounters randomized to add an element of risk in recruiting them,
however
> it doesn't really matter what you change as long as it works toward
a more
> evenly matched game. If you feel experienced players being attracted
to the
> DS is what throws the statistics, then you should seek ways to
attract
> experienced players to the FP side, there must be something lacking
there
> that experienced players crave, probably because they have the most
> interesting characters(thats why I would prefer DS, however it would
not be
> very difficult to poll the experienced players that you see choosing
DS over
> FP).
>
>
> >From: Clint Oldridge <allsorts@c...>
> >Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> >To: "INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com" <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> >Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] DGE meets Harlequin
> >Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:04:01 -0500
> >
> >I have reguarly seen experienced players play the DS over the FP -
this
> >might count for some of those issues. Also the way that Agents
have
> >altered should affect things. Not sure what else would be
appropriate?
> >
> >Clint
> >
> >Message text written by INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > >
> >I think the best you can do to help replayability and keeping new
players
> >is
> >to address the 66% win percentage of the DS teams in 1650, (it
seems to be
> >the most popular scenario).
> ><
> >
>
>

JeremyRichman@...

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

That's a an excellent point, I never realized it
before. You are absolutely right, the FP are
very dependent on those nations, where the DS
are not. And in most of my FP games, one or
more of those three nations (NG,SG,Eothraim)
either dropped or were ineffective and I felt
frustrated and helpless, however well I might
be doing in my position. Thank you for making
me understand this.

And I agree, for the DS the game is an outlast.
If they survive the first 10-15 turns, the game turns
very much in their favor.

Jeremy

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "facade " <kzfoul@y...> wrote:
> --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, Clint Oldridge <allsorts@c...> wrote:
> > I have reguarly seen experienced players play the DS over the FP -
> this
> > might count for some of those issues. Also the way that Agents
have
> > altered should affect things. Not sure what else would be
> appropriate?
>
> Dragons are horribly abused. They weren't meant to be a tool of
> the DS but just a chance encounter with many different possible
> results. The cheat lists have made them into an endless +30,000
> combat artifacts for the DS. A fix here is needed. Perhaps make them
> an 'invisible' encounter. One that doesn't announce itself on pop
> center reports thereby creating the Misty mountain camp
> placement/dragon recruitment strategy. Fix this first and then see
if
> any other balance issue fixes are needed.
>
> Better players do pick the DS positions. Why? Well for one they
> are cooler. But mostly people pick them because it is easier to play
> and to win as a DS. The Free must play well to win. The DS need not.
> All the DS need do is survive long enough for their
> agents/dragons/curse squads to take over the game.
>
> The Free have two major problems that make them unattractive to
> people playing to win. The success of the Free is for the most part
> determined by only 3 of their nations, the Gondors and the Eothraim.
> To do well the Free must do a lot of damage early in the game. Which
> means they need good play from their frontline positions. If any of
> these 3 drop early or just play badly it's going to be very hard for
> the Free to win. It makes little difference how well Arthedain,
> Cardolan and the Noldo are playing if NG rolls over. It is also very
> unappealing to have your nation slaughtered off by agents. This just
> isn't fun. It is hard and often frustrating to play the Free and
many
> games are determined by play or non-play by nations other then your
> own. The Dark Servants don't suffer from this problem. Bad or
> nonexistant play from any DS nation, while not something you want,
> doesn't impact the game as greatly as NG sitting out the war. One
bad
> player won't lose the game for the DS. One bad player does often
lose
> the game for the Free.
>
> facade

JeremyRichman@...

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

I still find the DS a challenge, but the challenge
is not so much about winning but rather finding
new and bolder ways to play the position.

Some time ago I tried to play just FP nations,
to "take up the challenge" of the FP. But most
of the times I tried I got screwed. I was
the Noldo in a grudge game (of all things) when
the NG and three other players didn't play.
I was the Northmen in a game where four of
the FP nations including Eothraim, which were
being played by moderator's in one of Harlequin's
predecessors, all dropped right away. And so on.
As you pointed out, when that happens the DS
victory is just about guaranteed.

And in addition, their nations are (IMHO) simply
dull compared with the DS. It isn't about having
a Nazgul, it is the whole setup. For the most
part, the DS have more room to take initiative,
they have more room for invention and audacity.
And they can plans without having to worry about
some key army in their plan going bye-bye due
to agents.

So given the choice between dull FP and repetetive
easy DS wins, I chose Fourth-Age, which had come
along just in time. I haven't been in a 1650 game
for a while now, though I'm thinking of going back
for one more blast.

Jeremy

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "facade " <kzfoul@y...> wrote:
> --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
> > Speaking as an experienced 1650 player who almost always
> > chooses the DS, the reason is simple.
>
> I find the DS more attractive to play. The Nazgul are pretty cool.
> But I choose the Free now. Why? Because I feel any game I am in as a
> DS is basically an automatic win. Even if I'm in a game with a bunch
> of new players as long as they are willing to listen and talk I feel
> confident that we will be able to provide enough of a coordinated
> defense to survive long enough for our agents to take over the game.
> Unless the Free play spectacular I don't believe they have any
chance
> in a game where the DS play as a team. Winning as the DS isn't a
> challenge for an experienced player.
>
> facade

JeremyRichman@...

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

If you are making a connection, I am not grasping it.
I agree that LAS would change the game somewhat, but
it doesn't eliminate kidnapping and assassinations,
just makes them harder to accomplish by making scouting
less easy and removing the CloudLord bonus.

I'm not someone who wants an exclusively military game.
I like building up characters, I like the use of mages,
emissaries and even agents for stealing scouting and
sabotaging. I would probably prefer the DS no matter
what changes were made because I like their setups
better, but I'd still prefer an LAS. I might just
settle for getting rid of double-scouting and for
making agents easier to scout and more likely to
show up in popcenters -- as it is top agents are
pretty much invisible, which may be justifiable but
makes counter-intelligence nearly impossible.

I'd happily go for reducing or removing the
effectiveness of dragons as well.

Jeremy

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...> wrote:
> LAS limits agent activity on both sides, and this changes the aspect
> of the game that many people enjoy. While I think having LAS games
> available would be nice(I'd play a couple), I wouldn't want it to be
the
> standard for all games I play. If game balance was achieved in some
> fashion or another, I think experienced players that prefer a
military
> game would gravitate more toward the FP who can field multiple
> massive armies, while those that enjoy the character building
aspects
> of the game would be more attracted to the DS. While there are
military
> DS nations, and character FP nations, the DS are weighted more
> character wise, while the FP are weighted more heavily in recruiting
> power and economy.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: JeremyRichman@c...
> To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 7:19 PM
> Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
>
>
> Speaking as an experienced 1650 player who almost always
> chooses the DS, the reason is simple. The DS have
> much more interesting nations to play, IMO. They
> have much more exciting characters and more interesting
> and exciting military challenges. Militarily/economically
> they always feel like the underdog, which makes them
> more exciting.
>
> The exceptions to this (also IMO) are the Sinda,
> who's nation setup is closest in military challenge
> and character excitment to the typical DS. Although
> I've played the Woodmen, Northmen, Eothraim,
> and Arthedain, and Noldo, I wouldn't play any of
> them again. But I'd play the Sinda.
>
> The other reason of course for not playing the FP
> is that it is no fun getting hammered by assassins
> and kidnappers.
>
> How about an LAS 1650? That would mean no double-scouting,
> no +20 for the CloudLord, and no stealth-rank bonus.
> For each nation that had one or two of those abilities,
> find some replacement ability for them. Instead of
> double scouting, give +20 to scout. Instead of stealth
> rank bonus give challenge rank, and instead of +20 k/a,
> give something powerful. Either a hidden popcenter (cost
> is similar in FA) or whatever. That still doesn't
> make up for the other things that make the DS more
> exciting, but it would be a start.
>
> Jeremy Richman
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...>
wrote:
> > I think this has a lot to do with experienced players
recognizing
> which side
> > has the most versatility and options. We can make hypotheses all
day
> about
> > why the DS win 2 out of 3, but it doesn't change the fact that
> they're
> > winning 2 out of 3. I would begin with minor changes over time
until
> the end
> > statistics begin coming out more even. I'd personally like to
see
> the dragon
> > encounters randomized to add an element of risk in recruiting
them,
> however
> > it doesn't really matter what you change as long as it works
toward
> a more
> > evenly matched game. If you feel experienced players being
attracted
> to the
> > DS is what throws the statistics, then you should seek ways to
> attract
> > experienced players to the FP side, there must be something
lacking
> there
> > that experienced players crave, probably because they have the
most
> > interesting characters(thats why I would prefer DS, however it
would
> not be
> > very difficult to poll the experienced players that you see
choosing
> DS over
> > FP).
> >
> >
> > >From: Clint Oldridge <allsorts@c...>
> > >Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > >To: "INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com" <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > >Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] DGE meets Harlequin
> > >Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:04:01 -0500
> > >
> > >I have reguarly seen experienced players play the DS over the
FP -
> this
> > >might count for some of those issues. Also the way that Agents
> have
> > >altered should affect things. Not sure what else would be
> appropriate?
> > >
> > >Clint
> > >
> > >Message text written by INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > > >
> > >I think the best you can do to help replayability and keeping
new
> players
> > >is
> > >to address the 66% win percentage of the DS teams in 1650, (it
> seems to be
> > >the most popular scenario).
> > ><
> > >
> >
> >

kurgan

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

DGE did one or two LAS FA games with no kidnapping and no assassinations.
Atleast that was what the message base indicated

JeremyRichman@... wrote:

> If you are making a connection, I am not grasping it.
> I agree that LAS would change the game somewhat, but
> it doesn't eliminate kidnapping and assassinations,
> just makes them harder to accomplish by making scouting
> less easy and removing the CloudLord bonus.
>
> I'm not someone who wants an exclusively military game.
> I like building up characters, I like the use of mages,
> emissaries and even agents for stealing scouting and
> sabotaging. I would probably prefer the DS no matter
> what changes were made because I like their setups
> better, but I'd still prefer an LAS. I might just
> settle for getting rid of double-scouting and for
> making agents easier to scout and more likely to
> show up in popcenters -- as it is top agents are
> pretty much invisible, which may be justifiable but
> makes counter-intelligence nearly impossible.
>
> I'd happily go for reducing or removing the
> effectiveness of dragons as well.
>
> Jeremy
>
> --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...> wrote:
> > LAS limits agent activity on both sides, and this changes the aspect
> > of the game that many people enjoy. While I think having LAS games
> > available would be nice(I'd play a couple), I wouldn't want it to be
> the
> > standard for all games I play. If game balance was achieved in some
> > fashion or another, I think experienced players that prefer a
> military
> > game would gravitate more toward the FP who can field multiple
> > massive armies, while those that enjoy the character building
> aspects
> > of the game would be more attracted to the DS. While there are
> military
> > DS nations, and character FP nations, the DS are weighted more
> > character wise, while the FP are weighted more heavily in recruiting
> > power and economy.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: JeremyRichman@c...
> > To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 7:19 PM
> > Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> >
> >
> > Speaking as an experienced 1650 player who almost always
> > chooses the DS, the reason is simple. The DS have
> > much more interesting nations to play, IMO. They
> > have much more exciting characters and more interesting
> > and exciting military challenges. Militarily/economically
> > they always feel like the underdog, which makes them
> > more exciting.
> >
> > The exceptions to this (also IMO) are the Sinda,
> > who's nation setup is closest in military challenge
> > and character excitment to the typical DS. Although
> > I've played the Woodmen, Northmen, Eothraim,
> > and Arthedain, and Noldo, I wouldn't play any of
> > them again. But I'd play the Sinda.
> >
> > The other reason of course for not playing the FP
> > is that it is no fun getting hammered by assassins
> > and kidnappers.
> >
> > How about an LAS 1650? That would mean no double-scouting,
> > no +20 for the CloudLord, and no stealth-rank bonus.
> > For each nation that had one or two of those abilities,
> > find some replacement ability for them. Instead of
> > double scouting, give +20 to scout. Instead of stealth
> > rank bonus give challenge rank, and instead of +20 k/a,
> > give something powerful. Either a hidden popcenter (cost
> > is similar in FA) or whatever. That still doesn't
> > make up for the other things that make the DS more
> > exciting, but it would be a start.
> >
> > Jeremy Richman
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...>
> wrote:
> > > I think this has a lot to do with experienced players
> recognizing
> > which side
> > > has the most versatility and options. We can make hypotheses all
> day
> > about
> > > why the DS win 2 out of 3, but it doesn't change the fact that
> > they're
> > > winning 2 out of 3. I would begin with minor changes over time
> until
> > the end
> > > statistics begin coming out more even. I'd personally like to
> see
> > the dragon
> > > encounters randomized to add an element of risk in recruiting
> them,
> > however
> > > it doesn't really matter what you change as long as it works
> toward
> > a more
> > > evenly matched game. If you feel experienced players being
> attracted
> > to the
> > > DS is what throws the statistics, then you should seek ways to
> > attract
> > > experienced players to the FP side, there must be something
> lacking
> > there
> > > that experienced players crave, probably because they have the
> most
> > > interesting characters(thats why I would prefer DS, however it
> would
> > not be
> > > very difficult to poll the experienced players that you see
> choosing
> > DS over
> > > FP).
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Clint Oldridge <allsorts@c...>
> > > >Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > > >To: "INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com" <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > >Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] DGE meets Harlequin
> > > >Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:04:01 -0500
> > > >
> > > >I have reguarly seen experienced players play the DS over the
> FP -
> > this
> > > >might count for some of those issues. Also the way that Agents
> > have
> > > >altered should affect things. Not sure what else would be
> > appropriate?
> > > >
> > > >Clint
> > > >
> > > >Message text written by INTERNET:mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > > > >
> > > >I think the best you can do to help replayability and keeping
> new
> > players
> > > >is
> > > >to address the 66% win percentage of the DS teams in 1650, (it
> > seems to be
> > > >the most popular scenario).
> > > ><
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>

lucas cuccia

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

One early key advantage the DS have over their FP opponents is the
number of chararters that start in their capital on turn one. The best
the Free's have is four with South Gondor. Two seems to be the average
for the FP. Three is the lowest for for the dark servants with the
Witch King and Dragon Lord having those honors. Look at all of the
Mordor nations, 8 in the Blind Sorcerer capital, 7 in the Ice King and
Cloud Lord, and so on. During those early turns, having more
characters at home would be a good play balance.

This limitation also sets the tone for the game. Look at the Eothraim,
with one chararter in capital. if the 3 non army commanders were in
the capital, he could do 3x the orders. Poor North Gondor, by the time
she gets the commander from Calmarie and/or Minas Ithil to the capital
he need to hire another CO. How ofter does NG get a Mage? By what turn
does NG hire the first Emissary. If the NG elinated Alandur and
replaced him with a Emissary/Mage, there could be more balance.

An earlier posting I placed discuss different character abilities, you
all should look them up

Lucas

JeremyRichman@...

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

Good points; having fewer chars at the
capital is definitely a handicap for the FP.

(BTW, in the original version the Eothraim
did not start with even one capital character.
But it became standard DS practice to bombard
the capital on turn one with agents, steal
all the gold and assassinate the character
that was sent in to name new characters,
so GSI changed it very early on.)

Jeremy Richman

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "lucas cuccia" <lucasc68@y...> wrote:
> One early key advantage the DS have over their FP opponents is the
> number of chararters that start in their capital on turn one. The
best
> the Free's have is four with South Gondor. Two seems to be the
average
> for the FP. Three is the lowest for for the dark servants with the
> Witch King and Dragon Lord having those honors. Look at all of the
> Mordor nations, 8 in the Blind Sorcerer capital, 7 in the Ice King
and
> Cloud Lord, and so on. During those early turns, having more
> characters at home would be a good play balance.
>
> This limitation also sets the tone for the game. Look at the
Eothraim,
> with one chararter in capital. if the 3 non army commanders were in
> the capital, he could do 3x the orders. Poor North Gondor, by the
time
> she gets the commander from Calmarie and/or Minas Ithil to the
capital
> he need to hire another CO. How ofter does NG get a Mage? By what
turn
> does NG hire the first Emissary. If the NG elinated Alandur and
> replaced him with a Emissary/Mage, there could be more balance.
>
> An earlier posting I placed discuss different character abilities,
you
> all should look them up
>
> Lucas

Colin Forbes

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

Hi,
Sorry, but I have to jump in here with regard to the idea of
paying extra for some positions.

> As Facade stated in a previous letter, the DS are also chosen by many
> experienced players, simply because they're easier to win with.

Firstly, I dont see why this should be so. Surely as an
experienced player you're looking for challenges - what
better than the Woodmen? Players that opt for a position
they see as an "easy win" (there is no such thing - at least
with honour) are (in my book) besmirching their reputations
somewhat.

I would also disagree with the view that the DS are easier
to win with. That may well have been the case at one time,
but with the various changes that have been made I do not
think this is as true as it once was. Sure, the statistics
will tell you the DS win 60% of the time. But bear in mind
that the changes to the effectiveness of guarding etc are
almost all in games that haven't finished yet. Since those
changes have been brought in I have played in five 1650
games. Two have finished (both had started by the time the
agent rules were twiddled with) and they finished one to
each side. Of the other three all are going the way of the
FP.

> I have seen different scales of turns fees applied successfully within
> games, e.g. Austerlitz, the Napoleonic wargame, where if you play, say,
> Italy, you're charged a lot less per turn than, say, France.
> I think it should be adopted in ME1650, with the exception of complete
> newbies to the game - they should still be charged the current prices.

No, no, NO! If this is implemented I think a number of
players (myself included) will cease playing Harlequin
games. Why should people who are less well off be
disadvantaged when it comes to playing the better nations?
It's iniquitous and guaranteed to put people off signing up
for a game.

Colin.

Ian Harris

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

Hi,
Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me know
if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on & let
someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which point
we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!

Ian Harris

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux" <devereux@l...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
>
>
> > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > >
> > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > >
> > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> >
> > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play the
hobbits!
> > :-)
>
> RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
>
> > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black Numenorians
could be
> > split
> > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in Moria
in
> > 2950, the
> > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
Radagast had
> > any
> > followers in the east?
>
> RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
Corsairs before
> 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
followers except
> birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
>
> In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
commanded by the
> Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
>
> If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be grafted
onto FA.
> I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
>
> I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you who
have read
> Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This war
was the
> 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
Noldor and
> Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle at
Dagorlad
> and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-galad
and
> Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur son
of
> Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
weregild.
> Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost. Which
is where
> The Hobbit and LoR start.
>
> For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
the 'historical'
> result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's power,
which
> would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical shape.
Any other
> result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would be
a 'race'
> element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw, so
they
> would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his strength
from a
> smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
>
> The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
galad, Elendil
> and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
wants to
> play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some more
familiar
> ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be fairly
> familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
Dwarves. The
> nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
Kingdoms of FA
> are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black Numenoreans
would be
> there too. Which is where I came in.
>
> If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that number) I
will
> finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
before because
> we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
point trying
> to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with the
influx of
> North American players who knows?
>
> Let me know.
>
> Richard.

Richard John Devereux

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 1:57 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin

> Hi,
> Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me know
> if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on & let
> someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which point
> we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
>
> Ian Harris

Thanks Ian - that's one! Need a few more though before I take it any
further.

Richard.
>
> --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux" <devereux@l...>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> >
> >
> > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > >
> > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > >
> > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > >
> > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play the
> hobbits!
> > > :-)
> >
> > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> >
> > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black Numenorians
> could be
> > > split
> > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in Moria
> in
> > > 2950, the
> > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> Radagast had
> > > any
> > > followers in the east?
> >
> > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> Corsairs before
> > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> followers except
> > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> >
> > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> commanded by the
> > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> >
> > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be grafted
> onto FA.
> > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
> >
> > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you who
> have read
> > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This war
> was the
> > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> Noldor and
> > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle at
> Dagorlad
> > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-galad
> and
> > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur son
> of
> > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> weregild.
> > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost. Which
> is where
> > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> >
> > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> the 'historical'
> > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's power,
> which
> > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical shape.
> Any other
> > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would be
> a 'race'
> > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw, so
> they
> > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his strength
> from a
> > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> >
> > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> galad, Elendil
> > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
> wants to
> > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some more
> familiar
> > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be fairly
> > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> Dwarves. The
> > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> Kingdoms of FA
> > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black Numenoreans
> would be
> > there too. Which is where I came in.
> >
> > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that number) I
> will
> > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> before because
> > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> point trying
> > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with the
> influx of
> > North American players who knows?
> >
> > Let me know.
> >
> > Richard.
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>
>

JeremyRichman@...

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

What's neat about that scenario is that Sauron
_starts_ with the One Ring!!! (Too bad it has
no powers. Also the program is probably hardcoded
to make its owner lose it 99% of the time, so
it might not be practical. Plus, it isn't one
of the FA artifacts anyway.)

Jeremy

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@e...> wrote:
> Hi,
> Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me know
> if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on &
let
> someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which point
> we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
>
> Ian Harris
>
> --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux"
<devereux@l...>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> >
> >
> > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > >
> > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > >
> > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > >
> > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play the
> hobbits!
> > > :-)
> >
> > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> >
> > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black Numenorians
> could be
> > > split
> > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in
Moria
> in
> > > 2950, the
> > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> Radagast had
> > > any
> > > followers in the east?
> >
> > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> Corsairs before
> > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> followers except
> > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> >
> > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> commanded by the
> > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> >
> > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be
grafted
> onto FA.
> > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
> >
> > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you who
> have read
> > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This war
> was the
> > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> Noldor and
> > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle at
> Dagorlad
> > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-galad
> and
> > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur
son
> of
> > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> weregild.
> > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost. Which
> is where
> > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> >
> > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> the 'historical'
> > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's power,
> which
> > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical shape.
> Any other
> > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would be
> a 'race'
> > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw, so
> they
> > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his strength
> from a
> > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> >
> > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> galad, Elendil
> > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
> wants to
> > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some more
> familiar
> > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be
fairly
> > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> Dwarves. The
> > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> Kingdoms of FA
> > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black
Numenoreans
> would be
> > there too. Which is where I came in.
> >
> > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that number) I
> will
> > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> before because
> > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> point trying
> > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with the
> influx of
> > North American players who knows?
> >
> > Let me know.
> >
> > Richard.

Harlequin Games

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

Sounds great Richard!

Clint
************************************************** **************
Harlequin Games Middle Earth Games
pbm@... me@...
www.harlequingames.com www.middleearthgames.com

340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours
************************************************** **************
Middle Earth - Legends - Serim Ral
CTF 2187 - Starquest - Crack of Doom
Battle of the Planets - Exile

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 1:57 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin

> Hi,
> Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me know
> if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on & let
> someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which point
> we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
>
> Ian Harris
>
> --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux" <devereux@l...>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> >
> >
> > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > >
> > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > >
> > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > >
> > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play the
> hobbits!
> > > :-)
> >
> > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> >
> > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black Numenorians
> could be
> > > split
> > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in Moria
> in
> > > 2950, the
> > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> Radagast had
> > > any
> > > followers in the east?
> >
> > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> Corsairs before
> > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> followers except
> > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> >
> > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> commanded by the
> > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> >
> > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be grafted
> onto FA.
> > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
> >
> > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you who
> have read
> > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This war
> was the
> > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> Noldor and
> > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle at
> Dagorlad
> > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-galad
> and
> > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur son
> of
> > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> weregild.
> > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost. Which
> is where
> > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> >
> > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> the 'historical'
> > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's power,
> which
> > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical shape.
> Any other
> > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would be
> a 'race'
> > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw, so
> they
> > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his strength
> from a
> > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> >
> > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> galad, Elendil
> > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
> wants to
> > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some more
> familiar
> > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be fairly
> > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> Dwarves. The
> > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> Kingdoms of FA
> > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black Numenoreans
> would be
> > there too. Which is where I came in.
> >
> > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that number) I
> will
> > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> before because
> > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> point trying
> > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with the
> influx of
> > North American players who knows?
> >
> > Let me know.
> >
> > Richard.
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>

Richard John Devereux

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: <JeremyRichman@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 1:09 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin

> What's neat about that scenario is that Sauron
> _starts_ with the One Ring!!! (Too bad it has
> no powers. Also the program is probably hardcoded
> to make its owner lose it 99% of the time, so
> it might not be practical. Plus, it isn't one
> of the FA artifacts anyway.)
>
> Jeremy

RD: Quite right - another reason why FA is suitable to graft the Last
Alliance game onto. Sauron would be considered to be carrying the One Ring,
and empowered accordingly, unless/until the FP succeed in either slaying him
or destroying Barad-dur.

Regards,

Richard.
>
> --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@e...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me know
> > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on &
> let
> > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which point
> > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> >
> > Ian Harris
> >
> > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux"
> <devereux@l...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > >
> > >
> > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > >
> > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play the
> > hobbits!
> > > > :-)
> > >
> > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > >
> > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black Numenorians
> > could be
> > > > split
> > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in
> Moria
> > in
> > > > 2950, the
> > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > Radagast had
> > > > any
> > > > followers in the east?
> > >
> > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > Corsairs before
> > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > followers except
> > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > >
> > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > commanded by the
> > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > >
> > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be
> grafted
> > onto FA.
> > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
> > >
> > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you who
> > have read
> > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This war
> > was the
> > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> > Noldor and
> > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle at
> > Dagorlad
> > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-galad
> > and
> > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur
> son
> > of
> > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> > weregild.
> > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost. Which
> > is where
> > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > >
> > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > the 'historical'
> > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's power,
> > which
> > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical shape.
> > Any other
> > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would be
> > a 'race'
> > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw, so
> > they
> > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his strength
> > from a
> > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> > >
> > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> > galad, Elendil
> > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
> > wants to
> > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some more
> > familiar
> > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be
> fairly
> > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> > Dwarves. The
> > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> > Kingdoms of FA
> > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black
> Numenoreans
> > would be
> > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > >
> > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that number) I
> > will
> > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> > before because
> > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> > point trying
> > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with the
> > influx of
> > > North American players who knows?
> > >
> > > Let me know.
> > >
> > > Richard.
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>
>

Richard John Devereux

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harlequin Games" <pbm@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin

> Sounds great Richard!
>
> Clint
>

RD: Why thank you! All we need now is enough players, say 20, to express
interest, and I'll get down to it. I'm happy to put the work in but I have
to be realistic - if we don't get that number, it's never going to get off
the ground, so no point me doing the work. I know you at Harlequin will say
exactly the same! Got 4 names so far but it's early days yet.

Regards,

Richard.
> > Hi,
> > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me know
> > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on & let
> > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which point
> > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> >
> > Ian Harris
> >
> > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux" <devereux@l...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > >
> > >
> > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > >
> > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play the
> > hobbits!
> > > > :-)
> > >
> > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > >
> > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black Numenorians
> > could be
> > > > split
> > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in Moria
> > in
> > > > 2950, the
> > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > Radagast had
> > > > any
> > > > followers in the east?
> > >
> > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > Corsairs before
> > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > followers except
> > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > >
> > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > commanded by the
> > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > >
> > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be grafted
> > onto FA.
> > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
> > >
> > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you who
> > have read
> > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This war
> > was the
> > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> > Noldor and
> > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle at
> > Dagorlad
> > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-galad
> > and
> > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur son
> > of
> > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> > weregild.
> > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost. Which
> > is where
> > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > >
> > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > the 'historical'
> > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's power,
> > which
> > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical shape.
> > Any other
> > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would be
> > a 'race'
> > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw, so
> > they
> > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his strength
> > from a
> > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> > >
> > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> > galad, Elendil
> > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
> > wants to
> > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some more
> > familiar
> > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be fairly
> > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> > Dwarves. The
> > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> > Kingdoms of FA
> > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black Numenoreans
> > would be
> > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > >
> > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that number) I
> > will
> > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> > before because
> > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> > point trying
> > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with the
> > influx of
> > > North American players who knows?
> > >
> > > Let me know.
> > >
> > > Richard.
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> >
> >
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>
>

Ian Harris

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

Hi,
Best way to simulate One Ring would probably either to increase
Sauron's mage skill to simulate its presence OR to give him a major
Mage artifact? A One Ring which its maker couldn't hang onto would be
a little silly!
Might also want to prohibit Free Peoples from using Curses to kill
Sauron - if its available in FA game it might make bumping off the
Dark Lord _too_ easy!
Also I assume Free Peoples couldn't use the Elven rings - if
available in this scenario - they took them off to avoid being
controlled by the One Ring.
Are there any neutrals in this scenario or would all nations be
pre-aligned?

Ian Harris

--- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
> What's neat about that scenario is that Sauron
> _starts_ with the One Ring!!! (Too bad it has
> no powers. Also the program is probably hardcoded
> to make its owner lose it 99% of the time, so
> it might not be practical. Plus, it isn't one
> of the FA artifacts anyway.)
>
> Jeremy
>
> --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@e...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me
know
> > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on &
> let
> > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which
point
> > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> >
> > Ian Harris
> >
> > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux"
> <devereux@l...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > >
> > >
> > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > >
> > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play
the
> > hobbits!
> > > > :-)
> > >
> > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > >
> > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black
Numenorians
> > could be
> > > > split
> > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in
> Moria
> > in
> > > > 2950, the
> > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > Radagast had
> > > > any
> > > > followers in the east?
> > >
> > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > Corsairs before
> > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > followers except
> > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > >
> > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > commanded by the
> > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > >
> > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be
> grafted
> > onto FA.
> > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
> > >
> > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you
who
> > have read
> > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This
war
> > was the
> > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> > Noldor and
> > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle
at
> > Dagorlad
> > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-
galad
> > and
> > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur
> son
> > of
> > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> > weregild.
> > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost.
Which
> > is where
> > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > >
> > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > the 'historical'
> > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's
power,
> > which
> > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical
shape.
> > Any other
> > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would
be
> > a 'race'
> > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw,
so
> > they
> > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his
strength
> > from a
> > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> > >
> > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> > galad, Elendil
> > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
> > wants to
> > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some
more
> > familiar
> > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be
> fairly
> > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> > Dwarves. The
> > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> > Kingdoms of FA
> > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black
> Numenoreans
> > would be
> > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > >
> > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that
number) I
> > will
> > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> > before because
> > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> > point trying
> > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with
the
> > influx of
> > > North American players who knows?
> > >
> > > Let me know.
> > >
> > > Richard.

Richard John Devereux

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 12:18 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin

> Hi,
> Best way to simulate One Ring would probably either to increase
> Sauron's mage skill to simulate its presence OR to give him a major
> Mage artifact? A One Ring which its maker couldn't hang onto would be
> a little silly!
> Might also want to prohibit Free Peoples from using Curses to kill
> Sauron - if its available in FA game it might make bumping off the
> Dark Lord _too_ easy!
> Also I assume Free Peoples couldn't use the Elven rings - if
> available in this scenario - they took them off to avoid being
> controlled by the One Ring.
> Are there any neutrals in this scenario or would all nations be
> pre-aligned?
>
> Ian Harris
>
RD:
1) Sauron's mage rank would reflect his possession of the One Ring, and he
will have other artifacts too. He is the most powerful character in the
scenario, by some distance!
2) Getting Curses is never easy, and it's far more difficult in FA. I
visualise the FP armies trying to batter their way through the DS defences
to Barad-dur rather than hunt Sauron down. Ideally, Sauron will then have
to put in a personal appearance to save his capital!
3) I think I'm right in saying the Elven rings don't come into the FA
scenario (went into the West with the Elves at the end of the WotR) - can
Harlequin confirm? So no M50 arts for the FP, which enables some distance
to be put between their top mages & Sauron.
4) All nations pre-aligned, 3 ex-neutrals to DS, 2 ex-neutrals to FP. After
all, you could hardly have the Black Numenoreans turning FP!

Richard.

Harlequin Games

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

Try the DGE list? Facade Board?

Clint
************************************************** **************
Harlequin Games Middle Earth Games
pbm@... me@...
www.harlequingames.com www.middleearthgames.com

340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours
************************************************** **************
Middle Earth - Legends - Serim Ral
CTF 2187 - Starquest - Crack of Doom
Battle of the Planets - Exile

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard John Devereux" <devereux@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harlequin Games" <pbm@...>
> To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 4:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
>
>
> > Sounds great Richard!
> >
> > Clint
> >
>
> RD: Why thank you! All we need now is enough players, say 20, to express
> interest, and I'll get down to it. I'm happy to put the work in but I
have
> to be realistic - if we don't get that number, it's never going to get off
> the ground, so no point me doing the work. I know you at Harlequin will
say
> exactly the same! Got 4 names so far but it's early days yet.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard.
> > > Hi,
> > > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me know
> > > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on & let
> > > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which point
> > > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> > >
> > > Ian Harris
> > >
> > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux" <devereux@l...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play the
> > > hobbits!
> > > > > :-)
> > > >
> > > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > > >
> > > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black Numenorians
> > > could be
> > > > > split
> > > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in Moria
> > > in
> > > > > 2950, the
> > > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > > Radagast had
> > > > > any
> > > > > followers in the east?
> > > >
> > > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > > Corsairs before
> > > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > > followers except
> > > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > > >
> > > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > > commanded by the
> > > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > > >
> > > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be grafted
> > > onto FA.
> > > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
> > > >
> > > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you who
> > > have read
> > > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This war
> > > was the
> > > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> > > Noldor and
> > > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle at
> > > Dagorlad
> > > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-galad
> > > and
> > > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur son

> > > of
> > > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> > > weregild.
> > > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost. Which
> > > is where
> > > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > > >
> > > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > > the 'historical'
> > > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's power,
> > > which
> > > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical shape.
> > > Any other
> > > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would be
> > > a 'race'
> > > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw, so
> > > they
> > > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his strength
> > > from a
> > > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> > > >
> > > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> > > galad, Elendil
> > > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
> > > wants to
> > > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some more
> > > familiar
> > > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be fairly
> > > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> > > Dwarves. The
> > > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> > > Kingdoms of FA
> > > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black Numenoreans
> > > would be
> > > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > > >
> > > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that number) I
> > > will
> > > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> > > before because
> > > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> > > point trying
> > > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with the
> > > influx of
> > > > North American players who knows?
> > > >
> > > > Let me know.
> > > >
> > > > Richard.
> > >
> > >
> > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>

TONY A & JANETTE S

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

I'd be interested in playing.

How about the One Ring making Sauron immune to all offensive spells?

----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Harris <ian.harris@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: 16 January 2001 12:18
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin

> Hi,
> Best way to simulate One Ring would probably either to increase
> Sauron's mage skill to simulate its presence OR to give him a major
> Mage artifact? A One Ring which its maker couldn't hang onto would be
> a little silly!
> Might also want to prohibit Free Peoples from using Curses to kill
> Sauron - if its available in FA game it might make bumping off the
> Dark Lord _too_ easy!
> Also I assume Free Peoples couldn't use the Elven rings - if
> available in this scenario - they took them off to avoid being
> controlled by the One Ring.
> Are there any neutrals in this scenario or would all nations be
> pre-aligned?
>
> Ian Harris
>
> --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
> > What's neat about that scenario is that Sauron
> > _starts_ with the One Ring!!! (Too bad it has
> > no powers. Also the program is probably hardcoded
> > to make its owner lose it 99% of the time, so
> > it might not be practical. Plus, it isn't one
> > of the FA artifacts anyway.)
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@e...> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me
> know
> > > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on &
> > let
> > > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which
> point
> > > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> > >
> > > Ian Harris
> > >
> > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux"
> > <devereux@l...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play
> the
> > > hobbits!
> > > > > :-)
> > > >
> > > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > > >
> > > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black
> Numenorians
> > > could be
> > > > > split
> > > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in
> > Moria
> > > in
> > > > > 2950, the
> > > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > > Radagast had
> > > > > any
> > > > > followers in the east?
> > > >
> > > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > > Corsairs before
> > > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > > followers except
> > > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > > >
> > > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > > commanded by the
> > > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > > >
> > > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be
> > grafted
> > > onto FA.
> > > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
> > > >
> > > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you
> who
> > > have read
> > > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This
> war
> > > was the
> > > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> > > Noldor and
> > > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle
> at
> > > Dagorlad
> > > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-
> galad
> > > and
> > > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur
> > son
> > > of
> > > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> > > weregild.
> > > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost.
> Which
> > > is where
> > > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > > >
> > > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > > the 'historical'
> > > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's
> power,
> > > which
> > > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical
> shape.
> > > Any other
> > > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would
> be
> > > a 'race'
> > > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw,
> so
> > > they
> > > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his
> strength
> > > from a
> > > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> > > >
> > > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> > > galad, Elendil
> > > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
> > > wants to
> > > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some
> more
> > > familiar
> > > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be
> > fairly
> > > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> > > Dwarves. The
> > > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> > > Kingdoms of FA
> > > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black
> > Numenoreans
> > > would be
> > > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > > >
> > > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that
> number) I
> > > will
> > > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> > > before because
> > > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> > > point trying
> > > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with
> the
> > > influx of
> > > > North American players who knows?
> > > >
> > > > Let me know.
> > > >
> > > > Richard.
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>

Richard John Devereux

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "TONY A & JANETTE S" <janton@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario

> I'd be interested in playing.
>
> How about the One Ring making Sauron immune to all offensive spells?

RD: thanks for the interest. I don't think Harlequin would be able to
that - nor, really, would I want to. He's going to be quite powerful enough
and the FP must stand a small chance of killing him!

Richard.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ian Harris <ian.harris@...>
> To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> Sent: 16 January 2001 12:18
> Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
>
>
> > Hi,
> > Best way to simulate One Ring would probably either to increase
> > Sauron's mage skill to simulate its presence OR to give him a major
> > Mage artifact? A One Ring which its maker couldn't hang onto would be
> > a little silly!
> > Might also want to prohibit Free Peoples from using Curses to kill
> > Sauron - if its available in FA game it might make bumping off the
> > Dark Lord _too_ easy!
> > Also I assume Free Peoples couldn't use the Elven rings - if
> > available in this scenario - they took them off to avoid being
> > controlled by the One Ring.
> > Are there any neutrals in this scenario or would all nations be
> > pre-aligned?
> >
> > Ian Harris
> >
> > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
> > > What's neat about that scenario is that Sauron
> > > _starts_ with the One Ring!!! (Too bad it has
> > > no powers. Also the program is probably hardcoded
> > > to make its owner lose it 99% of the time, so
> > > it might not be practical. Plus, it isn't one
> > > of the FA artifacts anyway.)
> > >
> > > Jeremy
> > >
> > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@e...> wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me
> > know
> > > > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on &
> > > let
> > > > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which
> > point
> > > > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> > > >
> > > > Ian Harris
> > > >
> > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux"
> > > <devereux@l...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play
> > the
> > > > hobbits!
> > > > > > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > > > >
> > > > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black
> > Numenorians
> > > > could be
> > > > > > split
> > > > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in
> > > Moria
> > > > in
> > > > > > 2950, the
> > > > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > > > Radagast had
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > followers in the east?
> > > > >
> > > > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > > > Corsairs before
> > > > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > > > followers except
> > > > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > > > >
> > > > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > > > commanded by the
> > > > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be
> > > grafted
> > > > onto FA.
> > > > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you
> > who
> > > > have read
> > > > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This
> > war
> > > > was the
> > > > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> > > > Noldor and
> > > > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle
> > at
> > > > Dagorlad
> > > > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-
> > galad
> > > > and
> > > > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur
> > > son
> > > > of
> > > > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> > > > weregild.
> > > > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost.
> > Which
> > > > is where
> > > > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > > > >
> > > > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > > > the 'historical'
> > > > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's
> > power,
> > > > which
> > > > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical
> > shape.
> > > > Any other
> > > > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would
> > be
> > > > a 'race'
> > > > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw,
> > so
> > > > they
> > > > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his
> > strength
> > > > from a
> > > > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> > > > galad, Elendil
> > > > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
> > > > wants to
> > > > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some
> > more
> > > > familiar
> > > > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be
> > > fairly
> > > > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> > > > Dwarves. The
> > > > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> > > > Kingdoms of FA
> > > > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black
> > > Numenoreans
> > > > would be
> > > > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > > > >
> > > > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that
> > number) I
> > > > will
> > > > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> > > > before because
> > > > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> > > > point trying
> > > > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with
> > the
> > > > influx of
> > > > > North American players who knows?
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me know.
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard.
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> >
> >
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>
>

Harlequin Games

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

We could house rule it - basically no spells cast on Sauron - and should
Sauron die then no new character with that name allowed.

Clint

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "TONY A & JANETTE S" <janton@...>
> To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario
>
>
> > I'd be interested in playing.
> >
> > How about the One Ring making Sauron immune to all offensive spells?
>
> RD: thanks for the interest. I don't think Harlequin would be able to
> that - nor, really, would I want to. He's going to be quite powerful
enough
> and the FP must stand a small chance of killing him!
>
> Richard.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ian Harris <ian.harris@...>
> > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > Sent: 16 January 2001 12:18
> > Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> >
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > Best way to simulate One Ring would probably either to increase
> > > Sauron's mage skill to simulate its presence OR to give him a major
> > > Mage artifact? A One Ring which its maker couldn't hang onto would be
> > > a little silly!
> > > Might also want to prohibit Free Peoples from using Curses to kill
> > > Sauron - if its available in FA game it might make bumping off the
> > > Dark Lord _too_ easy!
> > > Also I assume Free Peoples couldn't use the Elven rings - if
> > > available in this scenario - they took them off to avoid being
> > > controlled by the One Ring.
> > > Are there any neutrals in this scenario or would all nations be
> > > pre-aligned?
> > >
> > > Ian Harris
> > >
> > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
> > > > What's neat about that scenario is that Sauron
> > > > _starts_ with the One Ring!!! (Too bad it has
> > > > no powers. Also the program is probably hardcoded
> > > > to make its owner lose it 99% of the time, so
> > > > it might not be practical. Plus, it isn't one
> > > > of the FA artifacts anyway.)
> > > >
> > > > Jeremy
> > > >
> > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@e...> wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me
> > > know
> > > > > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on &
> > > > let
> > > > > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which
> > > point
> > > > > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Ian Harris
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux"
> > > > <devereux@l...>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > > > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play
> > > the
> > > > > hobbits!
> > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black
> > > Numenorians
> > > > > could be
> > > > > > > split
> > > > > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in
> > > > Moria
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > 2950, the
> > > > > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > > > > Radagast had
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > followers in the east?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > > > > Corsairs before
> > > > > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > > > > followers except
> > > > > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > > > > commanded by the
> > > > > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be
> > > > grafted
> > > > > onto FA.
> > > > > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you
> > > who
> > > > > have read
> > > > > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This
> > > war
> > > > > was the
> > > > > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> > > > > Noldor and
> > > > > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle
> > > at
> > > > > Dagorlad
> > > > > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-
> > > galad
> > > > > and
> > > > > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur
> > > > son
> > > > > of
> > > > > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> > > > > weregild.
> > > > > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost.
> > > Which
> > > > > is where
> > > > > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > > > > the 'historical'
> > > > > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's
> > > power,
> > > > > which
> > > > > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical
> > > shape.
> > > > > Any other
> > > > > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would
> > > be
> > > > > a 'race'
> > > > > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw,
> > > so
> > > > > they
> > > > > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his
> > > strength
> > > > > from a
> > > > > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> > > > > galad, Elendil
> > > > > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
> > > > > wants to
> > > > > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some
> > > more
> > > > > familiar
> > > > > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be
> > > > fairly
> > > > > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> > > > > Dwarves. The
> > > > > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> > > > > Kingdoms of FA
> > > > > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black
> > > > Numenoreans
> > > > > would be
> > > > > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that
> > > number) I
> > > > > will
> > > > > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> > > > > before because
> > > > > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> > > > > point trying
> > > > > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with
> > > the
> > > > > influx of
> > > > > > North American players who knows?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me know.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Richard.
> > >
> > >
> > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>

kurgan

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

Should Sauron Die shouldn't he become the lidless eye in say 10-20 turns and
become a random encounter?

Harlequin Games wrote:

> We could house rule it - basically no spells cast on Sauron - and should
> Sauron die then no new character with that name allowed.
>
> Clint
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "TONY A & JANETTE S" <janton@...>
> > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario
> >
> >
> > > I'd be interested in playing.
> > >
> > > How about the One Ring making Sauron immune to all offensive spells?
> >
> > RD: thanks for the interest. I don't think Harlequin would be able to
> > that - nor, really, would I want to. He's going to be quite powerful
> enough
> > and the FP must stand a small chance of killing him!
> >
> > Richard.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ian Harris <ian.harris@...>
> > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > Sent: 16 January 2001 12:18
> > > Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > Best way to simulate One Ring would probably either to increase
> > > > Sauron's mage skill to simulate its presence OR to give him a major
> > > > Mage artifact? A One Ring which its maker couldn't hang onto would be
> > > > a little silly!
> > > > Might also want to prohibit Free Peoples from using Curses to kill
> > > > Sauron - if its available in FA game it might make bumping off the
> > > > Dark Lord _too_ easy!
> > > > Also I assume Free Peoples couldn't use the Elven rings - if
> > > > available in this scenario - they took them off to avoid being
> > > > controlled by the One Ring.
> > > > Are there any neutrals in this scenario or would all nations be
> > > > pre-aligned?
> > > >
> > > > Ian Harris
> > > >
> > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
> > > > > What's neat about that scenario is that Sauron
> > > > > _starts_ with the One Ring!!! (Too bad it has
> > > > > no powers. Also the program is probably hardcoded
> > > > > to make its owner lose it 99% of the time, so
> > > > > it might not be practical. Plus, it isn't one
> > > > > of the FA artifacts anyway.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeremy
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@e...> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me
> > > > know
> > > > > > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on &
> > > > > let
> > > > > > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which
> > > > point
> > > > > > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ian Harris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux"
> > > > > <devereux@l...>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > > > > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play
> > > > the
> > > > > > hobbits!
> > > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black
> > > > Numenorians
> > > > > > could be
> > > > > > > > split
> > > > > > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in
> > > > > Moria
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > 2950, the
> > > > > > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > > > > > Radagast had
> > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > followers in the east?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > > > > > Corsairs before
> > > > > > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > > > > > followers except
> > > > > > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > > > > > commanded by the
> > > > > > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be
> > > > > grafted
> > > > > > onto FA.
> > > > > > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in 1650/2950.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you
> > > > who
> > > > > > have read
> > > > > > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This
> > > > war
> > > > > > was the
> > > > > > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> > > > > > Noldor and
> > > > > > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge battle
> > > > at
> > > > > > Dagorlad
> > > > > > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-
> > > > galad
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and Isildur
> > > > > son
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> > > > > > weregild.
> > > > > > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost.
> > > > Which
> > > > > > is where
> > > > > > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > > > > > the 'historical'
> > > > > > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's
> > > > power,
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical
> > > > shape.
> > > > > > Any other
> > > > > > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would
> > > > be
> > > > > > a 'race'
> > > > > > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the nw,
> > > > so
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his
> > > > strength
> > > > > > from a
> > > > > > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> > > > > > galad, Elendil
> > > > > > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS! Who
> > > > > > wants to
> > > > > > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some
> > > > more
> > > > > > familiar
> > > > > > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be
> > > > > fairly
> > > > > > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> > > > > > Dwarves. The
> > > > > > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> > > > > > Kingdoms of FA
> > > > > > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black
> > > > > Numenoreans
> > > > > > would be
> > > > > > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that
> > > > number) I
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> > > > > > before because
> > > > > > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> > > > > > point trying
> > > > > > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with
> > > > the
> > > > > > influx of
> > > > > > > North American players who knows?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me know.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Richard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > > > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
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Richard John Devereux

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harlequin Games" <pbm@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario

> We could house rule it - basically no spells cast on Sauron - and should
> Sauron die then no new character with that name allowed.
>
> Clint

RD: Considering this. It would be pretty stupid to allow the Freeps to kill
Sauron with Curses even if the chance of them getting a curse squad is
remote. Once Sauron is dead, it's game over.

Richard.
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "TONY A & JANETTE S" <janton@...>
> > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario
> >
> >
> > > I'd be interested in playing.
> > >
> > > How about the One Ring making Sauron immune to all offensive spells?
> >
> > RD: thanks for the interest. I don't think Harlequin would be able to
> > that - nor, really, would I want to. He's going to be quite powerful
> enough
> > and the FP must stand a small chance of killing him!
> >
> > Richard.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ian Harris <ian.harris@...>
> > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > Sent: 16 January 2001 12:18
> > > Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > Best way to simulate One Ring would probably either to increase
> > > > Sauron's mage skill to simulate its presence OR to give him a major
> > > > Mage artifact? A One Ring which its maker couldn't hang onto would
be
> > > > a little silly!
> > > > Might also want to prohibit Free Peoples from using Curses to
kill
> > > > Sauron - if its available in FA game it might make bumping off the
> > > > Dark Lord _too_ easy!
> > > > Also I assume Free Peoples couldn't use the Elven rings - if
> > > > available in this scenario - they took them off to avoid being
> > > > controlled by the One Ring.
> > > > Are there any neutrals in this scenario or would all nations be
> > > > pre-aligned?
> > > >
> > > > Ian Harris
> > > >
> > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
> > > > > What's neat about that scenario is that Sauron
> > > > > _starts_ with the One Ring!!! (Too bad it has
> > > > > no powers. Also the program is probably hardcoded
> > > > > to make its owner lose it 99% of the time, so
> > > > > it might not be practical. Plus, it isn't one
> > > > > of the FA artifacts anyway.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeremy
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@e...>
wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me
> > > > know
> > > > > > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early on
&
> > > > > let
> > > > > > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which
> > > > point
> > > > > > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ian Harris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux"
> > > > > <devereux@l...>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > > > > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play
> > > > the
> > > > > > hobbits!
> > > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black
> > > > Numenorians
> > > > > > could be
> > > > > > > > split
> > > > > > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation in
> > > > > Moria
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > 2950, the
> > > > > > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > > > > > Radagast had
> > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > followers in the east?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > > > > > Corsairs before
> > > > > > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > > > > > followers except
> > > > > > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > > > > > commanded by the
> > > > > > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be
> > > > > grafted
> > > > > > onto FA.
> > > > > > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in
1650/2950.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of you
> > > > who
> > > > > > have read
> > > > > > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance. This
> > > > war
> > > > > > was the
> > > > > > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of the
> > > > > > Noldor and
> > > > > > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge
battle
> > > > at
> > > > > > Dagorlad
> > > > > > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle, Gil-
> > > > galad
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and
Isildur
> > > > > son
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it for
> > > > > > weregild.
> > > > > > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost.
> > > > Which
> > > > > > is where
> > > > > > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > > > > > the 'historical'
> > > > > > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's
> > > > power,
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical
> > > > shape.
> > > > > > Any other
> > > > > > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There would
> > > > be
> > > > > > a 'race'
> > > > > > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the
nw,
> > > > so
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his
> > > > strength
> > > > > > from a
> > > > > > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and east.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg Gil-
> > > > > > galad, Elendil
> > > > > > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS!
Who
> > > > > > wants to
> > > > > > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some
> > > > more
> > > > > > familiar
> > > > > > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be
> > > > > fairly
> > > > > > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves and
> > > > > > Dwarves. The
> > > > > > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and South
> > > > > > Kingdoms of FA
> > > > > > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black
> > > > > Numenoreans
> > > > > > would be
> > > > > > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that
> > > > number) I
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done so
> > > > > > before because
> > > > > > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was no
> > > > > > point trying
> > > > > > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with
> > > > the
> > > > > > influx of
> > > > > > > North American players who knows?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me know.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Richard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > > > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> >
> >
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
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> http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
>
>
>

Richard John Devereux

2nd February 2008, 11:34 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "kurgan" <kurgan@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario

> Should Sauron Die shouldn't he become the lidless eye in say 10-20 turns
and
> become a random encounter?
>
RD: If Sauron dies it's game over, the FP win, end of story.
>
> Harlequin Games wrote:
>
> > We could house rule it - basically no spells cast on Sauron - and should
> > Sauron die then no new character with that name allowed.
> >
> > Clint
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "TONY A & JANETTE S" <janton@...>
> > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:48 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario
> > >
> > >
> > > > I'd be interested in playing.
> > > >
> > > > How about the One Ring making Sauron immune to all offensive spells?
> > >
> > > RD: thanks for the interest. I don't think Harlequin would be able to
> > > that - nor, really, would I want to. He's going to be quite powerful
> > enough
> > > and the FP must stand a small chance of killing him!
> > >
> > > Richard.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Ian Harris <ian.harris@...>
> > > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > > Sent: 16 January 2001 12:18
> > > > Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > Best way to simulate One Ring would probably either to increase
> > > > > Sauron's mage skill to simulate its presence OR to give him a
major
> > > > > Mage artifact? A One Ring which its maker couldn't hang onto would
be
> > > > > a little silly!
> > > > > Might also want to prohibit Free Peoples from using Curses to
kill
> > > > > Sauron - if its available in FA game it might make bumping off the
> > > > > Dark Lord _too_ easy!
> > > > > Also I assume Free Peoples couldn't use the Elven rings - if
> > > > > available in this scenario - they took them off to avoid being
> > > > > controlled by the One Ring.
> > > > > Are there any neutrals in this scenario or would all nations be
> > > > > pre-aligned?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ian Harris
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
> > > > > > What's neat about that scenario is that Sauron
> > > > > > _starts_ with the One Ring!!! (Too bad it has
> > > > > > no powers. Also the program is probably hardcoded
> > > > > > to make its owner lose it 99% of the time, so
> > > > > > it might not be practical. Plus, it isn't one
> > > > > > of the FA artifacts anyway.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jeremy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Ian Harris" <ian.harris@e...>
wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me
> > > > > know
> > > > > > > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate Isildur early
on &
> > > > > > let
> > > > > > > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which
> > > > > point
> > > > > > > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ian Harris
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux"
> > > > > > <devereux@l...>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > > > > > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > > > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > hobbits!
> > > > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black
> > > > > Numenorians
> > > > > > > could be
> > > > > > > > > split
> > > > > > > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish nation
in
> > > > > > Moria
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > 2950, the
> > > > > > > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > > > > > > Radagast had
> > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > followers in the east?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > > > > > > Corsairs before
> > > > > > > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > > > > > > followers except
> > > > > > > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > > > > > > commanded by the
> > > > > > > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be
> > > > > > grafted
> > > > > > > onto FA.
> > > > > > > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations in
1650/2950.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for those of
you
> > > > > who
> > > > > > > have read
> > > > > > > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last Alliance.
This
> > > > > war
> > > > > > > was the
> > > > > > > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by Gil-galad of
the
> > > > > > > Noldor and
> > > > > > > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a huge
battle
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > Dagorlad
> > > > > > > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic stuggle,
Gil-
> > > > > galad
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown, and
Isildur
> > > > > > son
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and took it
for
> > > > > > > weregild.
> > > > > > > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost.
> > > > > Which
> > > > > > > is where
> > > > > > > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > > > > > > the 'historical'
> > > > > > > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's
> > > > > power,
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical
> > > > > shape.
> > > > > > > Any other
> > > > > > > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed. There
would
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > a 'race'
> > > > > > > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power lies in the
nw,
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his
> > > > > strength
> > > > > > > from a
> > > > > > > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south and
east.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new characters eg
Gil-
> > > > > > > galad, Elendil
> > > > > > > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst the DS!
Who
> > > > > > > wants to
> > > > > > > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some
> > > > > more
> > > > > > > familiar
> > > > > > > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be
> > > > > > fairly
> > > > > > > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various Elves
and
> > > > > > > Dwarves. The
> > > > > > > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North and
South
> > > > > > > Kingdoms of FA
> > > > > > > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black
> > > > > > Numenoreans
> > > > > > > would be
> > > > > > > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that
> > > > > number) I
> > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I haven't done
so
> > > > > > > before because
> > > > > > > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and there was
no
> > > > > > > point trying
> > > > > > > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > influx of
> > > > > > > > North American players who knows?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Let me know.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Richard.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > > > > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > > > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > > > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
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> >
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