RE: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario

[Hatcher, Andy]

How about just adding a multiple to Sauron's hit points and healing
ability and change assassinate from kill to remove 100 hit points.

Say 4x, then it would take 4 successful assassins (on the same turn)
to kill him. Or you might be able to make a really high challange
god that could out-duel him, but it wouldn't be easy. Perhaps allow
Sauron to respond to multiple personal challenges in the same turn.
[You can kill Sauron by personal challenge, but you have to be willing
to lose a bunch of characters.]

In compensation, I'd reduce the overall abilities of the other leaders
on the DS side.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard John Devereux [mailto:devereux@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 2:56 PM
> To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "TONY A & JANETTE S" <janton@...>
> To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario
>
>
> > I'd be interested in playing.
> >
> > How about the One Ring making Sauron immune to all offensive spells?
>
> RD: thanks for the interest. I don't think Harlequin would be able to
> that - nor, really, would I want to. He's going to be quite
> powerful enough
> and the FP must stand a small chance of killing him!
>
> Richard.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ian Harris <ian.harris@...>
> > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > Sent: 16 January 2001 12:18
> > Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> >
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > Best way to simulate One Ring would probably either to increase
> > > Sauron's mage skill to simulate its presence OR to give
> him a major
> > > Mage artifact? A One Ring which its maker couldn't hang
> onto would be
> > > a little silly!
> > > Might also want to prohibit Free Peoples from using
> Curses to kill
> > > Sauron - if its available in FA game it might make bumping off the
> > > Dark Lord _too_ easy!
> > > Also I assume Free Peoples couldn't use the Elven rings - if
> > > available in this scenario - they took them off to avoid being
> > > controlled by the One Ring.
> > > Are there any neutrals in this scenario or would all nations be
> > > pre-aligned?
> > >
> > > Ian Harris
> > >
> > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
> > > > What's neat about that scenario is that Sauron
> > > > _starts_ with the One Ring!!! (Too bad it has
> > > > no powers. Also the program is probably hardcoded
> > > > to make its owner lose it 99% of the time, so
> > > > it might not be practical. Plus, it isn't one
> > > > of the FA artifacts anyway.)
> > > >
> > > > Jeremy
> > > >
> > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Ian Harris"
> <ian.harris@e...> wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me
> > > know
> > > > > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate
> Isildur early on &
> > > > let
> > > > > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which
> > > point
> > > > > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Ian Harris
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux"
> > > > <devereux@l...>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > > > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play
> > > the
> > > > > hobbits!
> > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black
> > > Numenorians
> > > > > could be
> > > > > > > split
> > > > > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish
> nation in
> > > > Moria
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > 2950, the
> > > > > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > > > > Radagast had
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > followers in the east?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > > > > Corsairs before
> > > > > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > > > > followers except
> > > > > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > > > > commanded by the
> > > > > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be
> > > > grafted
> > > > > onto FA.
> > > > > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations
> in 1650/2950.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for
> those of you
> > > who
> > > > > have read
> > > > > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last
> Alliance. This
> > > war
> > > > > was the
> > > > > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by
> Gil-galad of the
> > > > > Noldor and
> > > > > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a
> huge battle
> > > at
> > > > > Dagorlad
> > > > > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic
> stuggle, Gil-
> > > galad
> > > > > and
> > > > > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown,
> and Isildur
> > > > son
> > > > > of
> > > > > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and
> took it for
> > > > > weregild.
> > > > > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost.
> > > Which
> > > > > is where
> > > > > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > > > > the 'historical'
> > > > > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's
> > > power,
> > > > > which
> > > > > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical
> > > shape.
> > > > > Any other
> > > > > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed.
> There would
> > > be
> > > > > a 'race'
> > > > > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power
> lies in the nw,
> > > so
> > > > > they
> > > > > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his
> > > strength
> > > > > from a
> > > > > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south
> and east.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new
> characters eg Gil-
> > > > > galad, Elendil
> > > > > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst
> the DS! Who
> > > > > wants to
> > > > > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some
> > > more
> > > > > familiar
> > > > > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be
> > > > fairly
> > > > > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various
> Elves and
> > > > > Dwarves. The
> > > > > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North
> and South
> > > > > Kingdoms of FA
> > > > > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black
> > > > Numenoreans
> > > > > would be
> > > > > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that
> > > number) I
> > > > > will
> > > > > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I
> haven't done so
> > > > > before because
> > > > > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and
> there was no
> > > > > point trying
> > > > > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with
> > > the
> > > > > influx of
> > > > > > North American players who knows?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me know.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Richard.
> > >
> > >
> > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
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>

[Tony Zbaraschuk]

On Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 02:25:56PM -0800, Hatcher, Andy wrote:
> How about just adding a multiple to Sauron's hit points and healing
> ability and change assassinate from kill to remove 100 hit points.
>
> Say 4x, then it would take 4 successful assassins (on the same turn)
> to kill him. Or you might be able to make a really high challange
> god that could out-duel him, but it wouldn't be easy. Perhaps allow
> Sauron to respond to multiple personal challenges in the same turn.
> [You can kill Sauron by personal challenge, but you have to be willing
> to lose a bunch of characters.]
>


Make him an army encounter at Barad-dur; he can do good things (maybe)
for his servants at Barad-dur, but the only way for the Freeps to affect
him will be to get an army there with a commander good enough (and
lucky enough, and tough enough) to do whatever the encounter
figures is necessary.

The Nazgul should probably have their Nine Rings in this scenario,
making them tougher, but then the FP probably have considerably buff
characters too, and their own set of Numenorean and Noldo artifacts
that aren't around in the Third Age.

> In compensation, I'd reduce the overall abilities of the other leaders
> on the DS side.

Hmm.. a game where the DS have the army edge and the Freeps have the
character edge for once :)


Tony Z


Tony Z
--
"The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning;
His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air,
And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no returning."
The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.--A.E. Housman

[Harlequin Games]

We can't do this.

Clint> How about just adding a multiple to Sauron's hit points and healing
> ability and change assassinate from kill to remove 100 hit points.
>
> Say 4x, then it would take 4 successful assassins (on the same turn)
> to kill him. Or you might be able to make a really high challange
> god that could out-duel him, but it wouldn't be easy. Perhaps allow
> Sauron to respond to multiple personal challenges in the same turn.
> [You can kill Sauron by personal challenge, but you have to be willing
> to lose a bunch of characters.]
>
> In compensation, I'd reduce the overall abilities of the other leaders
> on the DS side.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Richard John Devereux [mailto:devereux@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 2:56 PM
> > To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "TONY A & JANETTE S" <janton@...>
> > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario
> >
> >
> > > I'd be interested in playing.
> > >
> > > How about the One Ring making Sauron immune to all offensive spells?
> >
> > RD: thanks for the interest. I don't think Harlequin would be able to
> > that - nor, really, would I want to. He's going to be quite
> > powerful enough
> > and the FP must stand a small chance of killing him!
> >
> > Richard.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ian Harris <ian.harris@...>
> > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > Sent: 16 January 2001 12:18
> > > Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > Best way to simulate One Ring would probably either to increase
> > > > Sauron's mage skill to simulate its presence OR to give
> > him a major
> > > > Mage artifact? A One Ring which its maker couldn't hang
> > onto would be
> > > > a little silly!
> > > > Might also want to prohibit Free Peoples from using
> > Curses to kill
> > > > Sauron - if its available in FA game it might make bumping off the
> > > > Dark Lord _too_ easy!
> > > > Also I assume Free Peoples couldn't use the Elven rings - if
> > > > available in this scenario - they took them off to avoid being
> > > > controlled by the One Ring.
> > > > Are there any neutrals in this scenario or would all nations be
> > > > pre-aligned?
> > > >
> > > > Ian Harris
> > > >
> > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:
> > > > > What's neat about that scenario is that Sauron
> > > > > _starts_ with the One Ring!!! (Too bad it has
> > > > > no powers. Also the program is probably hardcoded
> > > > > to make its owner lose it 99% of the time, so
> > > > > it might not be practical. Plus, it isn't one
> > > > > of the FA artifacts anyway.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeremy
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Ian Harris"
> > <ian.harris@e...> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > Might well be interested in a "Last Alliance" game - let me
> > > > know
> > > > > > if it ever gets going. Then we can assassinate
> > Isildur early on &
> > > > > let
> > > > > > someone with more sense dump the Ring into the lava - at which
> > > > point
> > > > > > we all die in the resulting eruption - oops!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ian Harris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com, "Richard John Devereux"
> > > > > <devereux@l...>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Pontus Gustavsson" <pontus@g...>
> > > > > > > To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:04 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How bout coming up with some newer nations? For example:
> > > > > > > > > Out of 25 players in a game:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1) 10 DS players chose from 15 or 20 DS nations
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2) Same for the 10 FP
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, the hobbits! I get to play the hobbits! I get to play
> > > > the
> > > > > > hobbits!
> > > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > RD: Oh you sad person (g)!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Lossoth would be fun to play too, and the Black
> > > > Numenorians
> > > > > > could be
> > > > > > > > split
> > > > > > > > out of the Corsairs, and there could be an orcish
> > nation in
> > > > > Moria
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > 2950, the
> > > > > > > > Dark Lieutenants could get a nation each, and who knows if
> > > > > > Radagast had
> > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > followers in the east?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > RD: Historically the Black Numenoreans were absorbed by the
> > > > > > Corsairs before
> > > > > > > 1650. Radagast lived in Mirkwood not the east, and had no
> > > > > > followers except
> > > > > > > birds. Nontheless these suggestions have potential.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In 2950, an orcish nation in Moria could be justified - and
> > > > > > commanded by the
> > > > > > > Balrog! Now that would be fun to play!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you are looking for new nations, they can most easily be
> > > > > grafted
> > > > > > onto FA.
> > > > > > > I doubt whether Harlequin can/would change nations
> > in 1650/2950.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have the basis for just such a game, based (for
> > those of you
> > > > who
> > > > > > have read
> > > > > > > Tolkien's Silmarillion) on the War of the Last
> > Alliance. This
> > > > war
> > > > > > was the
> > > > > > > 'prequel' to 1650, when the good guys led by
> > Gil-galad of the
> > > > > > Noldor and
> > > > > > > Elendil of the Dunedain marched on Mordor, fought a
> > huge battle
> > > > at
> > > > > > Dagorlad
> > > > > > > and besieged Barad-dur. In the final climactic
> > stuggle, Gil-
> > > > galad
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > Elendil were both slain, but Sauron was overthrown,
> > and Isildur
> > > > > son
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > Elendil cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger and
> > took it for
> > > > > > weregild.
> > > > > > > Elendil was later ambushed and slain and the One Ring lost.
> > > > Which
> > > > > > is where
> > > > > > > The Hobbit and LoR start.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For the FP to win the Last Alliance they need to achieve
> > > > > > the 'historical'
> > > > > > > result of either destroying Barad-dur (the seat of Sauron's
> > > > power,
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > would start as a city/citadel) or slay Sauron's physical
> > > > shape.
> > > > > > Any other
> > > > > > > result is a DS win so a time limit may be needed.
> > There would
> > > > be
> > > > > > a 'race'
> > > > > > > element to the game as the seat of the FP power
> > lies in the nw,
> > > > so
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > would need to hit Mordor before Sauron could build up his
> > > > strength
> > > > > > from a
> > > > > > > smaller pop base and bring in allies from the south
> > and east.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Last Alliance would provide lots of new
> > characters eg Gil-
> > > > > > galad, Elendil
> > > > > > > and Isildur, not to mention Sauron himself amongst
> > the DS! Who
> > > > > > wants to
> > > > > > > play puny Saruman in 2950 now eh? There would also be some
> > > > more
> > > > > > familiar
> > > > > > > ones like Elrond and the Nazgul. Some nation names would be
> > > > > fairly
> > > > > > > familiar, eg the 9 Nazgul plus Sauron v the various
> > Elves and
> > > > > > Dwarves. The
> > > > > > > nations of mortal Men would be different: the North
> > and South
> > > > > > Kingdoms of FA
> > > > > > > are perfectly named for the Last Alliance and the Black
> > > > > Numenoreans
> > > > > > would be
> > > > > > > there too. Which is where I came in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If there is enough interest (24 players or close to that
> > > > number) I
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > finish the design and submit to Harlequin. I
> > haven't done so
> > > > > > before because
> > > > > > > we're only on turn 15 of my 2950 variant WotR and
> > there was no
> > > > > > point trying
> > > > > > > to launch another new variant straight afterwards. But with
> > > > the
> > > > > > influx of
> > > > > > > North American players who knows?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me know.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Richard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > > > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
> > To Unsubscribe:www.onelist.com
> > http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/harlequin.games/list.htm
> >
> >
>
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>
>

[jshushan@...]

In a message dated 1/16/01 2:56:09 PM Central Standard Time, janton@...
writes:

> > Hi,
> > Best way to simulate One Ring would probably either to increase
> > Sauron's mage skill to simulate its presence OR to give him a major
> > Mage artifact? A One Ring which its maker couldn't hang onto would be
> > a little silly!
>

Gents:

Just a thought. Before we "simulate" the One Ring, consider this. As
the one ring exists in this game, and has, somewhere, defined "game effects"
why not give the ring, minus the "it fell off" factor, to Sauron. The only
trick would be that the actual powers and rules about the ring would have to
be made public as at the end of the second age, Sauron, a character in this
scenario I think??, would know how it works and what it can and can't do?
This make sense??

Jonathan.

[jshushan@...]

In a message dated 1/16/01 4:17:02 PM Central Standard Time,
devereux@... writes:

> > How about the One Ring making Sauron immune to all offensive spells?
>
> RD: thanks for the interest. I don't think Harlequin would be able to
> that - nor, really, would I want to. He's going to be quite powerful enough
> and the FP must stand a small chance of killing him!
>
> Richard.
>

Gents: Both could be correct. If we recall, Sauron was killed in personal
combat by Isildur and the Elven king. 2 on 1 210 order. Interesting. How
do we make it possible for the "Historical/Accurate" version to come about?
Isn't that a starting place?

Jonathan

[jshushan@...]

In a message dated 1/16/01 4:17:02 PM Central Standard Time,
devereux@... writes:

> >
> > How about the One Ring making Sauron immune to all offensive spells?
>
> RD: thanks for the interest. I don't think Harlequin would be able to
> that - nor, really, would I want to. He's going to be quite powerful enough
> and the FP must stand a small chance of killing him!
>
> Richard.
>

Gents: Secondly, in terms of Sauron's "powers" recall this. At the end of
the "Return of the King" it is discussed that the Dark assault on Lorien
failed because the magical defenses were such that only if "Sauron himself"
arrived from Mordor could the magical defenses be broken.

I.E., Sauron can break defenses erected by the entire Sinda nation, over who
knows how long.

I'd say he's an almost absurdly powerful character, who has a 2 on 1 210
weakness set up somehow. Not sure of the details?

Jonathan

[jshushan@...]

In a message dated 1/16/01 8:23:30 PM Central Standard Time,
pbm@... writes:

>
> We can't do this.
>
> Clint> How about just adding a multiple to Sauron's hit points and healing
> > ability and change assassinate from kill to remove 100 hit points.
>

As Sauron is an NPC already, could he simply be duplicated, in statistics and
abilities, on a newly created character? To get him into the game?

Jonathan

[Richard John Devereux]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hatcher, Andy" <ahatcher@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario


> How about just adding a multiple to Sauron's hit points and healing
> ability and change assassinate from kill to remove 100 hit points.
>
> Say 4x, then it would take 4 successful assassins (on the same turn)
> to kill him.

RD: I don't know whether Harlequin would be able/willing to multiply
Sauron's hit points nor, to be honest do I think this is desirable. He
should not be invincible in this scenario.

But x2 to Sauron's healing is a possibility and I will consider this.

> Or you might be able to make a really high challange
> god that could out-duel him, but it wouldn't be easy.

RD: The top FP characters will be good, but Sauron MUST be considerably
better. There will still be room for both to develop and, of course, use
artifacts to boost challenge rank higher still.

Perhaps allow
> Sauron to respond to multiple personal challenges in the same turn.
> [You can kill Sauron by personal challenge, but you have to be willing
> to lose a bunch of characters.]

RD: I don't think Harlequin could do this. If you translate the combat
Tolkien describes into game turns, it looks like Sauron succumbed to
successive challenges, slaying first Gil-galad but taking wounds, the same
against Elendil, enabling Isildur to finish him off. In the game, of
course, Sauron could Refuse..... unless we remove the Refuse challenge
order! Now there's a thought!
>
> In compensation, I'd reduce the overall abilities of the other leaders
> on the DS side.

RD: Yes, the Nazgul were (relatively) inexperienced in the Last Alliance,
compared with what they became by the time of the War of the Ring. But they
still weren't pushovers! I must do a balancing act with the top characters
on both sides - I don't want to end up with some nations so weak and dull
that nobody wants to play them!

All contributions to this discussion are welcome, but when suggesting
changes, please bear in mind what it is legal and feasible for Harlequin to
do. I'm not being a killjoy by chucking out some suggestions. Harlequin
can juggle the number, size, forts & placement of pops; they can juggle the
number of characters and their skill ranks; they can place artifacts with
specific characters; they can juggle the size/composition/supplies of
armies; they can juggle stores and gold. Some things Harlequin CANNOT do
are make changes to the program ie rule changes (altho they might be able to
manually administer the odd one or two?), or add new spells or artifacts.
That's how I understand the state of play at present - doubtless Clint will
correct me if I'm wrong!

Regards,

Richard.

[Richard John Devereux]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Zbaraschuk" <tonyz@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario


> On Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 02:25:56PM -0800, Hatcher, Andy wrote:
> > How about just adding a multiple to Sauron's hit points and healing
> > ability and change assassinate from kill to remove 100 hit points.
> >
> > Say 4x, then it would take 4 successful assassins (on the same turn)
> > to kill him. Or you might be able to make a really high challange
> > god that could out-duel him, but it wouldn't be easy. Perhaps allow
> > Sauron to respond to multiple personal challenges in the same turn.
> > [You can kill Sauron by personal challenge, but you have to be willing
> > to lose a bunch of characters.]
> >
>
>
> Make him an army encounter at Barad-dur; he can do good things (maybe)
> for his servants at Barad-dur, but the only way for the Freeps to affect
> him will be to get an army there with a commander good enough (and
> lucky enough, and tough enough) to do whatever the encounter
> figures is necessary.

RD: One of the things Harlequin cannot do is introduce a new encounter. As
there is no Sauron encounter in FA, I made him a character.
>
> The Nazgul should probably have their Nine Rings in this scenario,
> making them tougher, but then the FP probably have considerably buff
> characters too, and their own set of Numenorean and Noldo artifacts
> that aren't around in the Third Age.
>
> > In compensation, I'd reduce the overall abilities of the other leaders
> > on the DS side.
>
> Hmm.. a game where the DS have the army edge and the Freeps have the
> character edge for once :)
>
>
> Tony Z
>
>
RD: Actually, no. The FP start with superior forces in the nw with which,
in the story, they fought their way into Mordor and besieged Barad-dur.
They could hardly have done this with inferior forces!

The DS have to devise a strategy to stop this happening. Obviously they
will recruit like mad and pull their allies in from south and east. They
might also make a pre-emptive strike against the relatively weak South
Kingdom, lay various kinds of ambush for the Freeps marching south, etc.

Richard.

> Tony Z
> --
> "The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning;
> His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air,
> And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no returning."
> The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.--A.E.
Housman
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Harlequin Games
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>
>
>

[Johan Grankvist]

Uhm, I haven't followed this discussion to the full I have a small
suggestion... dunno if it's any good though...
Make the game so the characters are generated by random. (Skills, Bonus and
Location(at any own PC))
It will enable the chance of getting super-/useless characters from start
which will never give the same startup for anyone...

and leave Sauron out... He is a "Joker"... either good or bad...

All the Best
RedEyeJoe

*----------------------------*
I watched my friends as we grew up together,
I watched them as they fell.
Some fell into heaven,
Some fell into Hell
*----------------------------*"Rainy night in Soho", The Pogues

[Middle Earth PBM Games]

Not sure if this would work - if you have a useless nation you'll get boredand drop - a tasty nation will dominate.

Better to have the Gold/experience points system that FA allows - maybe with limited choices for each style of nation.

Clint
************************************************** **************
Harlequin Games Middle Earth Games
pbm@... me@...
www.harlequingames.com www.middleearthgames.com

340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours
************************************************** **************
Middle Earth - Legends - Serim Ral
CTF 2187 - Starquest - Crack of Doom
Battle of the Planets - Exile

----- Original Message -----
From: Johan Grankvist
To: 'mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com'
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario

Uhm, I haven't followed this discussion to the full I have a small suggestion... dunno if it's any good though...
Make the game so the characters are generated by random. (Skills, Bonus and Location(at any own PC))
It will enable the chance of getting super-/useless characters from start which will never give the same startup for anyone...

and leave Sauron out... He is a "Joker"... either good or bad...

All the Best
RedEyeJoe

*----------------------------*
I watched my friends as we grew up together,
I watched them as they fell.
Some fell into heaven,
Some fell into Hell
*----------------------------*"Rainy night in Soho", The Pogues


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[Harlequin Games]

We can create an awesome Sauron - that is not a problem - as to being able to use him I am not quite so sure. If we go the PC route then no encounters - if we go the NPC route different situation.

Clint
************************************************** **************
Harlequin Games Middle Earth Games
pbm@... me@...
www.harlequingames.com www.middleearthgames.com

340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours
************************************************** **************
Middle Earth - Legends - Serim Ral
CTF 2187 - Starquest - Crack of Doom
Battle of the Planets - Exile

----- Original Message -----
From: jshushan@...
To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 3:56 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario

In a message dated 1/16/01 8:23:30 PM Central Standard Time,
pbm@... writes:




We can't do this.

Clint> How about just adding a multiple to Sauron's hit points and healing
> ability and change assassinate from kill to remove 100 hit points.



As Sauron is an NPC already, could he simply be duplicated, in statisticsand
abilities, on a newly created character? To get him into the game?

Jonathan
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[TONY A & JANETTE S]

Isn't this because Lorien's defences were constructed with one of the ElvenRings and Sauron had the One Ring which could control it?
Gents: Secondly, in terms of Sauron's "powers" recall this. At the end of
the "Return of the King" it is discussed that the Dark assault on Lorien
failed because the magical defenses were such that only if "Sauron himself"
arrived from Mordor could the magical defenses be broken.

I.E., Sauron can break defenses erected by the entire Sinda nation, overwho
knows how long.

I'd say he's an almost absurdly powerful character, who has a 2 on 1 210
weakness set up somehow. Not sure of the details?

Jonathan

[Richard John Devereux]

----- Original Message -----
From: TONY A & JANETTE S
To: mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario


Isn't this because Lorien's defences were constructed with one of the Elven Rings and Sauron had the One Ring which could control it?

RD: No. Galadriel erected the defences of Lorien in the Second Age, after Sauron put on the One Ring, and the Elves became aware of him and removedtheir subordinate rings. After the One Ring was lost, Galadriel was able to use her ring Nenya to improve Lorien's defences further.

Galadriel was a Noldo altho the people of Lorien were mostly Silvan and (just to confuse matters) spoke Sindarin. After the death of Gil-galad, Galadriel was the single most powerful elf in Middle-earth, so altho Sauron himself might have been able to breach the defences of Lorien, it wasn't a foregone conclusion.

Rather than seeing Sauron as an 'absurdly powerful character with a weakness,' I see him as the single most powerful character BUT the top Elves andDunedain were not that far behind, due to their association with the Valar(gods). This makes it quite logical that Sauron would fall to successive challenges from Gil-Galad, Elendil and Isildur, being victorious but wounded in the first two.

Richard.
Gents: Secondly, in terms of Sauron's "powers" recall this. At the end of
the "Return of the King" it is discussed that the Dark assault on Lorien
failed because the magical defenses were such that only if "Sauron himself"
arrived from Mordor could the magical defenses be broken.

I.E., Sauron can break defenses erected by the entire Sinda nation, over who
knows how long.

I'd say he's an almost absurdly powerful character, who has a 2 on 1 210
weakness set up somehow. Not sure of the details?

Jonathan


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[Winn Keathley]

> Rather than seeing Sauron as an 'absurdly powerful character with a
>weakness,' I see him as the single most powerful character BUT the top
>Elves and Dunedain were not that far behind, due to their association with
>the Valar (gods). This makes it quite logical that Sauron would fall to
>successive challenges from Gil-Galad, Elendil and Isildur, being victorious
>but wounded in the first two.

The most powerful of the Noldor and Dunedain are probably not too much
weaker than the elf kings in the Simarillion.

Sauron is clearly weaker than Morgoth.

Morgoth got his ass handed to him by one of the sons of Feanor in one on one
personal combat. Hurt him so badly that he never left his caverns to do
battle again. That was done by an elf of Galadriel's general power level.

Aside from the Isildur fight, the only personal combat I can remember for
Sauron is the battle where he almost gets killed by a dog in the Simarillion
and is forced to take his werewolf army and withdraw.

So I think saying that Sauron isn't too far above the Free leaders is
probably a fair assessment.


>
> I.E., Sauron can break defenses erected by the entire Sinda nation,
>over who
> knows how long.

Maybe he just had the "reveal hidden pop center" spell.

Winn

[Tony Zbaraschuk]

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:21:12PM +0000, Winn Keathley wrote:
> Morgoth got his ass handed to him by one of the sons of Feanor in one on one
> personal combat. Hurt him so badly that he never left his caverns to do
> battle again. That was done by an elf of Galadriel's general power level.

Actually, Fingolfin was Feanor's half-brother and Galadriel's uncle,
and I suspect that he was more powerful than she was -- and don't forget
he lost the challenge, even if Morgoth had grievous wounds afterwards.

Luthien managed to double Morgoth so Beren could steal the Silmaril,
but neither of them stayed around to try their luck at anything
more lasting.

> Aside from the Isildur fight, the only personal combat I can remember for
> Sauron is the battle where he almost gets killed by a dog in the Simarillion
> and is forced to take his werewolf army and withdraw.
>
> So I think saying that Sauron isn't too far above the Free leaders is
> probably a fair assessment.

Probably right. Still, if his death ends the scenario, it should take
the Freeps a while to get someone good enough to challenge him.
Especially if they can't use the Three Rings. [I suspect that we should
probably just leave the Three out of the scenario altogether, since
the Elves weren't going to use them until Sauron died, which would end
the scenario, and they probably had them guarded well enough that nobody
was going to steal them.]


Tony Z

--
"The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning;
His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air,
And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no returning."
The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.--A.E. Housman

[Richard John Devereux]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Winn Keathley" <Gnaeus@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario


>
>
> > Rather than seeing Sauron as an 'absurdly powerful character with a
> >weakness,' I see him as the single most powerful character BUT the top
> >Elves and Dunedain were not that far behind, due to their association
with
> >the Valar (gods). This makes it quite logical that Sauron would fall to
> >successive challenges from Gil-Galad, Elendil and Isildur, being
victorious
> >but wounded in the first two.
>
> The most powerful of the Noldor and Dunedain are probably not too much
> weaker than the elf kings in the Simarillion.
>
> Sauron is clearly weaker than Morgoth.
>
> Morgoth got his ass handed to him by one of the sons of Feanor in one on
one
> personal combat. Hurt him so badly that he never left his caverns to do
> battle again. That was done by an elf of Galadriel's general power level.
>
> Aside from the Isildur fight, the only personal combat I can remember for
> Sauron is the battle where he almost gets killed by a dog in the
Simarillion
> and is forced to take his werewolf army and withdraw.
>
> So I think saying that Sauron isn't too far above the Free leaders is
> probably a fair assessment.
>
>
> >
> > I.E., Sauron can break defenses erected by the entire Sinda nation,
> >over who
> > knows how long.
>
> Maybe he just had the "reveal hidden pop center" spell.
>
> Winn
>
RD: Nice one, Winn!

Richard.

[Richard John Devereux]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Zbaraschuk" <tonyz@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) egroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Last Alliance Scenario


> On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:21:12PM +0000, Winn Keathley wrote:
> > Morgoth got his ass handed to him by one of the sons of Feanor in one on
one
> > personal combat. Hurt him so badly that he never left his caverns to do
> > battle again. That was done by an elf of Galadriel's general power
level.
>
> Actually, Fingolfin was Feanor's half-brother and Galadriel's uncle,
> and I suspect that he was more powerful than she was -- and don't forget
> he lost the challenge, even if Morgoth had grievous wounds afterwards.
>
> Luthien managed to double Morgoth so Beren could steal the Silmaril,
> but neither of them stayed around to try their luck at anything
> more lasting.
>
> > Aside from the Isildur fight, the only personal combat I can remember
for
> > Sauron is the battle where he almost gets killed by a dog in the
Simarillion
> > and is forced to take his werewolf army and withdraw.
> >
> > So I think saying that Sauron isn't too far above the Free leaders is
> > probably a fair assessment.
>
> Probably right. Still, if his death ends the scenario, it should take
> the Freeps a while to get someone good enough to challenge him.
> Especially if they can't use the Three Rings. [I suspect that we should
> probably just leave the Three out of the scenario altogether, since
> the Elves weren't going to use them until Sauron died, which would end
> the scenario, and they probably had them guarded well enough that nobody
> was going to steal them.]
>
>
> Tony Z
>
> --
> "The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning;
> His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air,
> And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no returning."
> The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.--A.E.
Housman
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
RD: Confirm the 3 Rings will NOT be in this scenario. The good guys
couldn't use them whilst Sauron was wearing the One. The 3 Rings do NOT
appear in the FA scenario, so this is another very convenient coincidence.

Regards,

Richard.