Re: [mepbmlist] Changes to SNA costs?

[Din]

> Here's a new thread for discussion.

thanks for starting the discussion. Its looks you have
taken a fair amount of time to thing about things.

Any chance you could go thru the others ? Maybe you
can look at harly's database and see what SNA have
been picked up - I wonder if they got the history from
Deft ?

I think some SNA don't get picked up.

I wouldn't reduce the cost of fortifications. I've
also picked it up and didn't use it that much. But I
think that was my fault, not the fault of the SNA.



> > 4. Build fortifications at 1/2 timber. Another
> sucker shot. I've seen many players take it,
> including
> myself -- but they don't seem to get around to
> building
> many fortifications, beyond a tower or two and
> that's
> just a minor timber savings. Just how many
> fortifications
> do you have to build in order for this to be worth
> 4000? I've gotten this for free as a Kingdom nation
> and still rarely used it. FA is just to fast-paced
> for fortifications. Also, fortifying too much is
> increases your maintenance costs and occupies a
> commander,
> and is dangerous as your popcenter can just get
> emmied
> from you. The only value I could see for this
> offhand
> would be if I were starting in a timber-rich area
> and
> put no fortifications on my capital. I would plan
> to quickly build to a castle or something.
>
> Perhaps it is just that no one has shown me how
> to really parlay this SNA into valuable results.
> I'd be interested in hearing success stories
>
> My price:
>
> 2000 Build fortifications at 1/2 timber cost
>
>
> Okay, I'm about done. Let the flames begin! <g>
>
> Jeremy Richman
>
>
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[Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl]

Jeremy, I think your points are well thought out and dead on. Lemme toss
another log on the fire...
I would ALSO like to see a "lottery" for certain SNA's.
What I mean is that the cheaper an SNA, the more nations that can select it.
The most expensive SNA's will be allocated one to a side (Free, Neutral and
Dark, with the Kingdoms being considered Neutrals). After everyone sent in
their set ups, the computer/gm would look at how many nations on a side took
a particular SNA. If more than the fixed number did, nations would randomly
be 'deselected' until the number was met. Those unlucky nations would get a
randomly generated 'lesser' SNA and the gold difference. This would have two
profound effects:
1) A lesser need for the NKA scenario (which is fun, by the way!)
2) More thought in nation creation, especially TEAM creation.
Just my thoughts...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: JeremyRichman@... [mailto:JeremyRichman@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 4:39 PM
> To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
> Subject: [mepbmlist] Changes to SNA costs?
>
>
> Here's a new thread for discussion.
>
> There are some SNA's that I think are incorrectly costed.
> (Harlequin, do you have the power/authority to make
> changes like that?)
>
> My rule of thumb for pricing SNA's is twofold.
> For an SNA that I favor, what would I pay for it.
> And for SNA's that I don't care for, what is the
> lowest price I would be willing to have it cost?
> The cases below are all from this latter consideration.
>
> 1. I would almost never take the SNA's for being
> able to learn Fearful Hearts or Fanaticism, but they
> would have to be at 1000 instead of 3000 for me to
> even consider them.
>
> Just to be clear here, the effect of the Fearful Hearts
> is to reduce the enemy offensive strength by 2.5% - 5%
> for the current turn. If I have 1000 HC, say my offense
> is perhaps 8000, so that is reduced an average of 320.
> Compare that to casting an average (same difficultly
> as Fearful Hearts) defensive spell such as Blessings,
> which takes off 1250 from the enemy strength! Admittedly
> the Blessings spell is a one-shot; it helps in the
> first round of combatonly. The FF spell reduces
> the enemy strength for all rounds of combat and
> possibly even if they are victorious it might reduce
> their effectiveness if they continue on to assault
> your population center in the same turn. Still,
> you can have the Blessing spell without paying 3000
> for an SNA.
>
> The Fanaticism spell increases your army offense
> by 1.25% to to almost 4%. Going back to my 1000 HC
> with an offense of about 8000, my casting of Fanaticism
> will increase my offense by an average of 240.
> Compare that with an average offensive spell such
> as Fire Bolts that causes 1000 points of additional
> damage. Admittedly this is in the first round only,
> compared with the effects of Fanaticism which lasts
> the entire battle and probably the popcenter assault
> if there is one.
>
> As armies get larger, the value of both these
> lost list spells becomes greater. With really
> huge armies they can outpace the regular spells.
> (Though remember that a mage can eventually learn
> a hard spell for 1500-1750 points of defense or
> 1500-1750 points of offense.) One advantage
> of the Fearful Hearts is that in something like
> a Battle of Five Armies, where there are several
> enemy armies facing you and several of your allies,
> all enemy armies are reduced in morale and therefore
> offense.
>
> I think that both these spells were designed for the
> 1650 scenario, where economies and therefore armies
> were larger, at least for the first dozen turns.
> Even in the 1650 scenarios I have never
> cast either of them when playing nations that could.
>
> I am probably overdoing it here. A really fair
> costing for these spells seems to me about 1500,
> but since the game seems to use multiples of thousand,
> I'd be willing to go overboard, just to see these
> spells get over-used for a change.
>
> 1000 can learn lost "fearful hearts" spell
> 1000 can learn lost "fanaticism" spell
>
>
> 2. Teleport is also overpriced, by 100%. Like
> a lottery ticket, what you are buying isn't
> a return on your investment but the pleasure
> of anticipating all you can do with it. It is
> hardly in the league of other 6000-pt SNA's like
> +20% buy/sell or naming 40-rank emissaries or agents.
> I mean, how can this spell cost more than Conjure Mounts???
> You can almost get the same result with a mage that
> knows Path Mastery and Capital Return. This spell
> should cost 3000. I certainly wouldn't care, if
> at 3000, if all nations took considered it a bargain
> and took it. I mean, great! You can beat me to any
> artifact we both know about at the same time that
> isn't within 12 of my capital, or 14 if my mage knows
> Long Stride, or one of my allies' capitals.
>
> 3000 can learn lost "teleport" spell
>
> 3. Build ships at 1/2 timber cost, navy warship
> strength at 4 and at 5. These are "sucker" bets,
> as my friend Ernest Hakey explained to me, though
> he used kinder words. Remember that for 1000 points
> you can get 4 ships. So would you rather be able
> to build ships for 1/2 timber, or start with 8 extra
> ships to begin with? Just to build those 8 ships
> later, even at half-timber, requires 6000 timber.
>
> Warships at strength-5 costs 3000; would you rather
> have that, or 12 extra warships to start with.
> That's an offense of 36; you'd have to start with
> 18 warships for your 5-strength SNA to give you
> an extra offense of 36, and the 12 warships give you
> an extra constitution of 3 points each -- 36 defense
> to boot. So even with 18 warships, the 5-strength SNA
> doesn't begin to compare to having 12 extra warships.
> You can even start with 10 extra warships and 2 more
> transports, or some other mix.
>
> Only the Elvish ability to create ships for 1/3 timber
> barely makes sense. Though I might rather start with
> 8 more ships that could make a difference early on,
> than be able to build more ships later.
>
> While I'm in this vicinity, I'll mention that
> the Open Seas SNA is maybe a little overpriced
> at 3000 but it does allow artifact retrieval
> from open waters and more importantly it lets
> armada's cut across open waters to get to their
> target more quickly and without being blockaded.
> So I will leave that one alone.
>
> Okay, what are fairer costs here? Here are my suggested
> prices:
>
> 1000 Build ships for 1/2 timber
> 1000 Build ships for 1/3 timber (Elves only)
> 1000 Navy warship strength at 4
> 2000 Navy warship strength at 5
>
>
> 4. Build fortifications at 1/2 timber. Another
> sucker shot. I've seen many players take it, including
> myself -- but they don't seem to get around to building
> many fortifications, beyond a tower or two and that's
> just a minor timber savings. Just how many fortifications
> do you have to build in order for this to be worth
> 4000? I've gotten this for free as a Kingdom nation
> and still rarely used it. FA is just to fast-paced
> for fortifications. Also, fortifying too much is
> increases your maintenance costs and occupies a commander,
> and is dangerous as your popcenter can just get emmied
> from you. The only value I could see for this offhand
> would be if I were starting in a timber-rich area and
> put no fortifications on my capital. I would plan
> to quickly build to a castle or something.
>
> Perhaps it is just that no one has shown me how
> to really parlay this SNA into valuable results.
> I'd be interested in hearing success stories
>
> My price:
>
> 2000 Build fortifications at 1/2 timber cost
>
>
> Okay, I'm about done. Let the flames begin! <g>
>
> Jeremy Richman
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

[Middle Earth PBM Games]

> Any chance you could go thru the others ? Maybe you
> can look at harly's database and see what SNA have
> been picked up - I wonder if they got the history from
> Deft ?
>
We have kept some of the game info for this but not all. The big powerful
SNAs are mostly chosen with some little useful ones like Challenge rank
bonus cos there were a few spare pts around.

Clint

[Middle Earth PBM Games]

A limit (arranged with the GM) can be done for SNAs in a game - say 3
nations have to choose Em nations, 2 Agenty/Mage type, and 3 Comm - that
sort of thing.

Clint
> What I mean is that the cheaper an SNA, the more nations that can select
it.
> The most expensive SNA's will be allocated one to a side (Free, Neutral
and
> Dark, with the Kingdoms being considered Neutrals). After everyone sent in
> their set ups, the computer/gm would look at how many nations on a side
took
> a particular SNA. If more than the fixed number did, nations would
randomly
> be 'deselected' until the number was met. Those unlucky nations would get
a
> randomly generated 'lesser' SNA and the gold difference. This would have
two
> profound effects:
> 1) A lesser need for the NKA scenario (which is fun, by the way!)
> 2) More thought in nation creation, especially TEAM creation.
> Just my thoughts...

[Duncan Harris]

>
> Jeremy, I think your points are well thought out and dead on. Lemme toss
> another log on the fire...
> I would ALSO like to see a "lottery" for certain SNA's.
> What I mean is that the cheaper an SNA, the more nations that can select it.
> The most expensive SNA's will be allocated one to a side (Free, Neutral and
> Dark, with the Kingdoms being considered Neutrals). After everyone sent in
> their set ups, the computer/gm would look at how many nations on a side took
> a particular SNA. If more than the fixed number did, nations would randomly
> be 'deselected' until the number was met. Those unlucky nations would get a
> randomly generated 'lesser' SNA and the gold difference. This would have two
> profound effects:
> 1) A lesser need for the NKA scenario (which is fun, by the way!)
> 2) More thought in nation creation, especially TEAM creation.
> Just my thoughts...
>

Maybe rather than a randomly generated set of 'lesser' SNAs (which could
potentially wreck someone's planned strategy :) you could instead send
in a list of backup SNAs, similar to the popcentre selection.

--
Duncan