Re: [mepbmlist] Off-topic = Gandalf's height

[Din]

--- Chris <cmeyer@...> wrote: > Hello all,
>
> I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
> couldn't resist asking
> a member of our team who prides himself on ME
> lore...
>
> Here is what he had to say:
>
> As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
> trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
> other why Saruman was the head of the White Council
> and not Gandalf.

even I knew why saruman was head of the White Council
- who wants to be the front man for a anti-sauron
group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still around
and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to work
in the background, keep a really fast horse for being
somewhere else, and never stay too long in one spot.

:)

but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height ? I'll
accept there might be something in the books on
Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???

Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can always
find their way home ?????

:)

thanks
din

p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his books.
The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to mind,
ie check the lifespans after the high humans started
breeding with us normal humans). I like to think that
Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are great',
rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.

I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
ability.


pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke. I
wonder if the UK will send him back as punishment ?

[Wilson Reis]

spanish hospital ?

Biggs lived here, in Brazil !

> pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
> Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
> treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke. I
> wonder if the UK will send him back as punishment ?
>
>

[John Briggs]

If I gave up my sources, how would I appear to be so
wise (note the word "appear")?

And you have to remember that Gandalf and Saruman were
Maia, not men (original names of Olórin and Curumo),
sent by the Valar to Middle Earth after the first
millennium of the Third Age. Remember what happened
when Saruman died - clearly not men.

And cats, suck. You're cat can't find away home, get
a dog :)

JB

--- Din <din_ohtar@...> wrote:
>
> --- Chris <cmeyer@...> wrote: > Hello
> all,
> >
> > I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
> > couldn't resist asking
> > a member of our team who prides himself on ME
> > lore...
> >
> > Here is what he had to say:
> >
> > As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
> > trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
> > other why Saruman was the head of the White
> Council
> > and not Gandalf.
>
> even I knew why saruman was head of the White
> Council
> - who wants to be the front man for a anti-sauron
> group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still around
> and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to work
> in the background, keep a really fast horse for
> being
> somewhere else, and never stay too long in one spot.
>
> :)
>
> but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height ?
> I'll
> accept there might be something in the books on
> Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???
>
> Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can
> always
> find their way home ?????
>
> :)
>
> thanks
> din
>
> p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
> smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his
> books.
> The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to
> mind,
> ie check the lifespans after the high humans started
> breeding with us normal humans). I like to think
> that
> Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are great',
> rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.
>
> I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
> second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
> greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
> ability.
>
>
> pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
> Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
> treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke. I
> wonder if the UK will send him back as punishment ?
>
>

[Richard John Devereux]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Din" <din_ohtar@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off-topic = Gandalf's height


>
> --- Chris <cmeyer@...> wrote: > Hello all,
> >
> > I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
> > couldn't resist asking
> > a member of our team who prides himself on ME
> > lore...
> >
> > Here is what he had to say:
> >
> > As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
> > trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
> > other why Saruman was the head of the White Council
> > and not Gandalf.
>
> even I knew why saruman was head of the White Council
> - who wants to be the front man for a anti-sauron
> group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still around
> and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to work
> in the background, keep a really fast horse for being
> somewhere else, and never stay too long in one spot.
>
> :)
>
> but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height ? I'll
> accept there might be something in the books on
> Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???
>
> Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can always
> find their way home ?????
>
> :)
>
> thanks
> din
>
> p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
> smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his books.
> The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to mind,
> ie check the lifespans after the high humans started
> breeding with us normal humans). I like to think that
> Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are great',
> rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.
>
> I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
> second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
> greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
> ability.
>
>
> pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
> Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
> treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke. I
> wonder if the UK will send him back as punishment ?

RD: I strongly suspect that the guy who gave the heights of all the Istari
took it from an ICE sourcebook rather than Tolkien. Show me a quote from
Tolkien that says how tall Gandalf was.

Gandalf warned that Saruman could change his appearance. As Gandalf was
more powerful than Saruman, surely he could do the same. Gandalf could
shrink into the background, as he did when the Dwarves were captured by
trolls in the Hobbit, and again in Goblin-town, and most remarkably of all
when he infiltrated the dungeons of Dol Guldur. More rarely, he drew
himself up to his full height eg when he faced the Balrog, or the Witch-king
at the broken gates of Minas Tirith, or when he overcame Saruman at
Isengard. For my money, Gandalf could make himself as tall or small as the
occasion required.

Re Biggs, not Briggs, you are absolutely right that even the British Health
Service will care for him better than a Brazilian (not Spanish) hospital now
he's run out of money. No wonder he wanted to come home.

Having spent his ill-gotten gains, he's come home to be a burden on the
British taxpayer for the rest of his life. Of course we will look after him
and keep him in comfort for the rest of his days, the poor old fellow, he
has his human rights, doesn't he?

Never mind the human rights of the poor sod the train robbers beat up
stealing the money, look after the poor misguided criminal. Good old
British justice.

Pass me the sick bucket quick.

Richard.

[Richard John Devereux]

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Briggs" <john_h_briggs@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off-topic = Gandalf's height


> If I gave up my sources, how would I appear to be so
> wise (note the word "appear")?

RD: If you can't quote a source, it looks like you're making it up. That's
not even appearing to be wise - quite the opposite.
>
> And you have to remember that Gandalf and Saruman were
> Maia, not men (original names of Olórin and Curumo),
> sent by the Valar to Middle Earth after the first
> millennium of the Third Age. Remember what happened
> when Saruman died - clearly not men.

RD: the saying about grandmothers and eggs springs to mind. And what's that
got to do with their height? As I said earlier, as wizards, both Gandalf
and Saruman could change their appearance, and therefore by implication
their height, to suit any situation they found themselves in.
>
> And cats, suck. You're cat can't find away home, get
> a dog :)
>
> JB

RD: There speaks a guy who no cat would stay with anyway.
>
>
> --- Din <din_ohtar@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- Chris <cmeyer@...> wrote: > Hello
> > all,
> > >
> > > I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
> > > couldn't resist asking
> > > a member of our team who prides himself on ME
> > > lore...
> > >
> > > Here is what he had to say:
> > >
> > > As a result of a few questions I have focused turn
> > > trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was, the
> > > other why Saruman was the head of the White
> > Council
> > > and not Gandalf.
> >
> > even I knew why saruman was head of the White
> > Council
> > - who wants to be the front man for a anti-sauron
> > group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still around
> > and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to work
> > in the background, keep a really fast horse for
> > being
> > somewhere else, and never stay too long in one spot.
> >
> > :)
> >
> > but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height ?
> > I'll
> > accept there might be something in the books on
> > Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???
> >
> > Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can
> > always
> > find their way home ?????
> >
> > :)
> >
> > thanks
> > din
> >
> > p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
> > smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his
> > books.
> > The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to
> > mind,
> > ie check the lifespans after the high humans started
> > breeding with us normal humans). I like to think
> > that
> > Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are great',
> > rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.
> >
> > I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
> > second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
> > greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
> > ability.
> >
> >
> > pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
> > Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
> > treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke. I
> > wonder if the UK will send him back as punishment ?
> >
> >
>

[John Briggs]

My aren't we friendly? Why so angry?

The reference to how they clearly are not men was
referring to the previous comment alluding to Gandlaf
being a High Man. But I suppose that I am making up
that Saruman died in a not-so-manly way.

Well Richard, I suppose since some just can't play
nice, let's forget the whole thing, and not play at
all.

JB

--- Richard John Devereux <devereux@...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Briggs" <john_h_briggs@...>
> To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off-topic = Gandalf's
> height
>
>
> > If I gave up my sources, how would I appear to be
> so
> > wise (note the word "appear")?
>
> RD: If you can't quote a source, it looks like
> you're making it up. That's
> not even appearing to be wise - quite the opposite.
> >
> > And you have to remember that Gandalf and Saruman
> were
> > Maia, not men (original names of Olórin and
> Curumo),
> > sent by the Valar to Middle Earth after the first
> > millennium of the Third Age. Remember what
> happened
> > when Saruman died - clearly not men.
>
> RD: the saying about grandmothers and eggs springs
> to mind. And what's that
> got to do with their height? As I said earlier, as
> wizards, both Gandalf
> and Saruman could change their appearance, and
> therefore by implication
> their height, to suit any situation they found
> themselves in.
> >
> > And cats, suck. You're cat can't find away home,
> get
> > a dog :)
> >
> > JB
>
> RD: There speaks a guy who no cat would stay with
> anyway.
> >
> >
> > --- Din <din_ohtar@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- Chris <cmeyer@...> wrote: > Hello
> > > all,
> > > >
> > > > I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
> > > > couldn't resist asking
> > > > a member of our team who prides himself on ME
> > > > lore...
> > > >
> > > > Here is what he had to say:
> > > >
> > > > As a result of a few questions I have focused
> turn
> > > > trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was,
> the
> > > > other why Saruman was the head of the White
> > > Council
> > > > and not Gandalf.
> > >
> > > even I knew why saruman was head of the White
> > > Council
> > > - who wants to be the front man for a
> anti-sauron
> > > group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still
> around
> > > and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to
> work
> > > in the background, keep a really fast horse for
> > > being
> > > somewhere else, and never stay too long in one
> spot.
> > >
> > > :)
> > >
> > > but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height
> ?
> > > I'll
> > > accept there might be something in the books on
> > > Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???
> > >
> > > Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can
> > > always
> > > find their way home ?????
> > >
> > > :)
> > >
> > > thanks
> > > din
> > >
> > > p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
> > > smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his
> > > books.
> > > The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to
> > > mind,
> > > ie check the lifespans after the high humans
> started
> > > breeding with us normal humans). I like to think
> > > that
> > > Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are
> great',
> > > rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.
> > >
> > > I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
> > > second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
> > > greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
> > > ability.
> > >
> > >
> > > pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
> > > Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
> > > treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke.
> I
> > > wonder if the UK will send him back as
> punishment ?
> > >
> > >
> >
>

[John Briggs]

I am fairly new to this list, and I would hope that
this isn't how most people are treated. While I have
met nothing but sensible and friendly folks from all
over the world playing this game, Middle Earth lovers
all of them (not necessarily just Tolkein lovers, but
lovers of all ME lore), I've not yet met those who are
as judgemental and condescending as this. I hope this
ends here, and that this list is used to talk sensibly
and amiably about Tolkein, Middle earth, and the
Play-by-(e)mail game we play. I have no problem with
arguments and discussions, but there is a general way
people should behave, especially those that have such
in common (not necessarily implying everyone has to
agree on everything of course, but responding like
this is, in my view, inappropriate). I hope someone
else can reassure me that this type of response is not
the usual. If not, I may just as well remove myself
with haste.

JB

--- Richard John Devereux <devereux@...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Briggs" <john_h_briggs@...>
> To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Off-topic = Gandalf's
> height
>
>
> > If I gave up my sources, how would I appear to be
> so
> > wise (note the word "appear")?
>
> RD: If you can't quote a source, it looks like
> you're making it up. That's
> not even appearing to be wise - quite the opposite.
> >
> > And you have to remember that Gandalf and Saruman
> were
> > Maia, not men (original names of Olórin and
> Curumo),
> > sent by the Valar to Middle Earth after the first
> > millennium of the Third Age. Remember what
> happened
> > when Saruman died - clearly not men.
>
> RD: the saying about grandmothers and eggs springs
> to mind. And what's that
> got to do with their height? As I said earlier, as
> wizards, both Gandalf
> and Saruman could change their appearance, and
> therefore by implication
> their height, to suit any situation they found
> themselves in.
> >
> > And cats, suck. You're cat can't find away home,
> get
> > a dog :)
> >
> > JB
>
> RD: There speaks a guy who no cat would stay with
> anyway.
> >
> >
> > --- Din <din_ohtar@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- Chris <cmeyer@...> wrote: > Hello
> > > all,
> > > >
> > > > I hate to open this can of worms again, but I
> > > > couldn't resist asking
> > > > a member of our team who prides himself on ME
> > > > lore...
> > > >
> > > > Here is what he had to say:
> > > >
> > > > As a result of a few questions I have focused
> turn
> > > > trivia on Gandalf. One asked how tall he was,
> the
> > > > other why Saruman was the head of the White
> > > Council
> > > > and not Gandalf.
> > >
> > > even I knew why saruman was head of the White
> > > Council
> > > - who wants to be the front man for a
> anti-sauron
> > > group when sauron (and the nazgul) are still
> around
> > > and seperating heads from bodies. Far better to
> work
> > > in the background, keep a really fast horse for
> > > being
> > > somewhere else, and never stay too long in one
> spot.
> > >
> > > :)
> > >
> > > but how did he get the answer of Gandalf height
> ?
> > > I'll
> > > accept there might be something in the books on
> > > Gandalf and Saurman, but the other three ???
> > >
> > > Next thing he will be saying is whose cats can
> > > always
> > > find their way home ?????
> > >
> > > :)
> > >
> > > thanks
> > > din
> > >
> > > p.s actually i'm surprised that gandalf was the
> > > smallest. Tokien has a small racist view in his
> > > books.
> > > The whole high men versus low men stuff comes to
> > > mind,
> > > ie check the lifespans after the high humans
> started
> > > breeding with us normal humans). I like to think
> > > that
> > > Tolkien was saying 'this race of humans are
> great',
> > > rather than 'that race of humans are scum'.
> > >
> > > I would have felt that Tolkien would put Gandalf
> > > second, ie shorter than Saruman since he had the
> > > greater intellect. But Saruman wasted his great
> > > ability.
> > >
> > >
> > > pps interesting to see briggs in jail in the UK.
> > > Methinks a hospital prison will provide better
> > > treatment than a spanish hospital for the broke.
> I
> > > wonder if the UK will send him back as
> punishment ?
> > >
> > >
> >
>

[John Stagoll]

>RD: the saying about grandmothers and eggs springs to mind. And
what's that
>got to do with their height? As I said earlier, as wizards, both
Gandalf
>and Saruman could change their appearance, and therefore by
implication
>their height, to suit any situation they found themselves in.

what? run that logic by me again please......

where in the books did this happen?

question on ICE.... where do they base all their info on? Or do they
just make it up to?

Tolkien is quite clear, Gandalf is taller than Elrond and Aragorn.
Going on Gimli's description (we have nothing else), Saruman is around
about the same height. I don't remember any references anywhere saying
Gandalf and Saruman could shrink and expand themselves (and we could
debate this topic to the full as well, frankly they didn't do too much
spell casting in the books, especially when you consider what
Galadriel was capable off).