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Middle Earth PBM Games
2nd February 2008, 01:06 PM
We've put this in as a factor for the Grudge games where they are very
strongly team games. (Ie if you lose nations you score less points) But
for the individual games I did not want to do that.

We could have an additional rating - which I quite like the idea of with
voting. If so I would suggest many criteria with a rating of 1-10 that you
put for each player on your team.

Eg
Teamsmanship 1-10
Skill 1-10
Diplomacy 1-10
etc

Can others add to this what they might think appropriate and maybe a short
description of what each means? As this is purely a subjective opinion
from player's perspective of player's ability and value to a team as
compared with the subjective scores of winning in other ways I would want
to stress that aspect with a minor modification due to win/loss/draw in the
equation. But it's up for debate and it would be cool if the players could
come up with an equation for this.

Clint

3 additions:

>- please add an MVP vote to the score. Yes, it's
>subjective, but also helpful -- ratings aside, it
>doesn't take long to see who helps your side, and this
>is a good way to account for an important factor.
>
>(>have a hard time beliving that most MEPBM teams are
>going to vote for the QA who sent 100k gold to his
>allies over the CL with 75 kills
> >I concur.)
>
>I don't. In my last game of 1650, our CL player was
>excellent not because he got the most kills (which he
>did), but because he was always there to contribute to
>any effort, in many ways. Other players felt the same.
>
>Of the three of us who have commented on this so far,
>all agree that team contribution -- more than, say,
>strict number of kills -- matters most. Maybe other
>players would feel the same way. Please add an MVP
>vote and score addition.
>
>- add a relative nation score. You can use this one
>that Marc contributed
>
> >Example: a Noldo player scores 1100 and a Woodman
>player scores 1000.
>Half of all of the winning Noldo players have scored
>less than 1100,
>so the Noldo player has no change in their rating.
>75% of the winning
>Woodmen players have scored less than 1000, so the
>Woodman players
>rating goes up by (say) 25 points.
>
>or you can use Brad Brunet's statistical variation in
>Bree 13.
>
>Clint, you objected this:
>
> >But the danger of this is that it does not reward the
>good
>team
>mate that got hit by a group of opponents (eg
>Eothraim) held them off
>valiantly allowing the rest of the team to do well
>
>which mases the third suggestion:
>
>- have a penalty for elimination and a bonus for
>completion. This is a war game! When your nation goes
>out, your side suffers. Many, many eliminations result
>from preventable player error, including simple
>failure to plan ahead.
>
>Some don't, of course, and we could split hairs
>forever (comparing the QA not just to other QA's, but
>to those in games with the same sort of neutral
>declarations, or Northmen when the Blind Sorceror army
>attacks and when it doesn't, etc) but the key factor
>is the same: your side is stronger when your nation
>remains in the game -- or at least it should be!
>
>Dan
>
>

Middle Earth PBM Games
2nd February 2008, 01:06 PM
Would you be interested in players opinions on how well they did in each of
the categories as a way of creating Grudge teams etc?

One other danger of voting systems is the blatant "I'll vote for you if you
vote for me" which is closely backed up by the your my best mate and we get
on so of course it was easier to play with you and hence I vote for you.

Any other thoughts on this and the suggestions below?

> >We could have an additional rating - which I quite like the idea of with
> >voting. If so I would suggest many criteria with a rating of 1-10 that you
> >put for each player on your team.
> >
> >Eg
> >Teamsmanship 1-10
> >Skill 1-10
> >Diplomacy 1-10
>
>Urgh. Please Keep It Simple. Just vote for 1st 2nd and 3rd best
>contribution, and best opponent.

Middle Earth PBM Games
2nd February 2008, 01:06 PM
Some good ideas here. (There you go Laurence the kiss of death). :-)

Jason's note about some nations impacting more and hence more likely to be
voted for is what I found in game 39 (not a big sample I admit but
definitely noticable).

Clint
> >One other danger of voting systems is the blatant "I'll vote for you if you
> >vote for me" which is closely backed up by the your my best mate and we get
> >on so of course it was easier to play with you and hence I vote for you.
>
>You have to be explicit about it in the house rules, and you should repeat
>on the voting forms:
>- no canvassing (or negative canvassing "Don't vote for Fred")
>- a secret vote
>- in fact no discussion of the voting within the team whatsoever
>- anybody breaks the above 3 principles, in no circumstances vote for him
>
>Most MEBBM players are decent and fair, and will abide by such guidelines
>if reminded of them.

Urzahil
2nd February 2008, 01:06 PM
<<Clint wrote:>>
<<Would you be interested in players opinions on how well they did in
each of the categories as a way of creating Grudge teams etc? One other
danger of voting systems is the blatant "I'll vote for you if you vote
for me" which is closely backed up by the your my best mate and we get
on so of course it was easier to play with you and hence I vote for you.
Any other thoughts on this and the suggestions below?>>

I have been FOR a voting type system, but I can see where the above
concerns might ruin it. Vote trading, "if I declare FP you must vote for
me", etc. I suppose this could become part of the diplomatic landscape
of the game, but I'm not sure it would make it better. Still, I suppose
we could give it a try and see.

Mike Mulka

Middle Earth PBM Games
2nd February 2008, 01:06 PM
Sounds good. Any other thoughts on this before I put forward something
more concrete on it?

Clint

>At 20:08 17/09/2002, you wrote:
> >Jason's note about some nations impacting more and hence more likely to be
> >voted for is what I found in game 39 (not a big sample I admit but
> >definitely noticable).
>
>Again some voting guidelines would be needed. You can ask people to vote
>for "the player who, given it's resources and characteristics, made the
>best use of his nation" or you can ask them to vote for "the player who
>made the best contribution to the team". Some of the chaps I know, work
>hard on data gathering, mapping, suggesting moves, questioning strategy,
>co-ordinating multi-national attacks, chaperoning newbies, wooing neutrals,
>and error checking draft turn sheets - they deserve credit, and would get
>my votes, and the nation they happen to be playing is of no relevance.
>
>So a lot depends on what you ask for, and how you phrase it. "Best
>Player", "Best Team Player" and "Best Played Nation" are all slightly
>different things, sometimes the same chap would get all 3 accolades, but
>not always.
>
>
>Laurence G. Tilley
>
>http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
>
>
>
>Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
>To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
>Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
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Richard DEVEREUX
2nd February 2008, 01:06 PM
----- Original Message -----
From: Middle Earth PBM Games
To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Player Rating plus


Would you be interested in players opinions on how well they did in each of
the categories as a way of creating Grudge teams etc?

One other danger of voting systems is the blatant "I'll vote for you if you
vote for me" which is closely backed up by the your my best mate and we get
on so of course it was easier to play with you and hence I vote for you.

Any other thoughts on this and the suggestions below?
RD: You can't stop people voting as above, but 1) they would be in a small minority - most players who could be bothered to vote would do so honestly;
2) players behaving as you describe would be ostracised by their former team-mates, therefore they would be the losers in the medium and long term unless they mended their ways.



> >We could have an additional rating - which I quite like the idea of with
> >voting. If so I would suggest many criteria with a rating of 1-10 that you
> >put for each player on your team.
> >
> >Eg
> >Teamsmanship 1-10
> >Skill 1-10
> >Diplomacy 1-10
>
>Urgh. Please Keep It Simple. Just vote for 1st 2nd and 3rd best
>contribution, and best opponent.

RD: Still too complicated. One vote for a member of your own team, one for one of the opposition.
Or (only slightly more complicated): each player gets 10 votes to bestow upon members of his own team (which would enable him to effectively vote for 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc) and 10 votes to similarly distribute amongst the opposition.

Or, seeing that we expect that the majority of players won't bother to vote, 100 votes per player! Now there's an incentive....

Richard.


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Richard DEVEREUX
2nd February 2008, 01:07 PM
----- Original Message -----
From: Middle Earth PBM Games
To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Voting systems


Some good ideas here. (There you go Laurence the kiss of death). :-)

Jason's note about some nations impacting more and hence more likely to be
voted for is what I found in game 39 (not a big sample I admit but
definitely noticable).

Clint
RD: No no no! If you are voting for a member of your own team, you vote for the PLAYER not the nation. Thus if the Eothraim player was down to 1 MT and 1 camp, but he was the guy who pulled all the threads together, HE ought to collect most votes regardless of how many cities and how much gold the Noldo piled up.

It is different voting for the opposition; ideally nobody should know who is playing which nations on the opposing team. This ensures an unbiased vote, purely on the basis of which enemy nation was most effective.

Richard.

> >One other danger of voting systems is the blatant "I'll vote for you if you
> >vote for me" which is closely backed up by the your my best mate and we get
> >on so of course it was easier to play with you and hence I vote for you.
>
>You have to be explicit about it in the house rules, and you should repeat
>on the voting forms:
>- no canvassing (or negative canvassing "Don't vote for Fred")
>- a secret vote
>- in fact no discussion of the voting within the team whatsoever
>- anybody breaks the above 3 principles, in no circumstances vote for him
>
>Most MEBBM players are decent and fair, and will abide by such guidelines
>if reminded of them.



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