Re: [mepbmlist] Maia and Istari

[Middle Earth PBM Games]

>
>I would propose a turn by turn calculation. Simply run the numbers
>every turn and the final number is simply the sum of each turns
>total, divided by the total number of turns. When players come
>and go, the calculation will yeild different results each turn.

URRGHH - nightmare for us. We can't offer that I am afraid.

Problem - Should drops be penalized?

>Factor in a modifier based on percentage of the game actually
>played? The Eo eliminated on turn 5 of a 25 turn game should
>get his 5 turns worth of experience, but should he be penalized
>a little compared to the Woodman who gets eliminated on turn 23,
>who should be penalized slightly against the nations who complete
>100% of the game? Or no penalties, I'm not very adamant here...
>

*** You've mentioned dropped and Eliminated as being synonymous. I would
not be so sure of this.

>ISTARI - an "individual" rating based solely on VP's and position
>at game end.
>
>Forget the position and base the score using a formula like below:
>
>New Rating = Original Rating + (VP's - Nation Average VP's)
>
>Simple, no standard deviation garbage, etc. Say a Woodman (on the
>winning team) ends with 1750 VP's! Wow! The Woodman average is
>easily well under 1000, he'll gain a whop of points!

*** Now this I do like! I would still like to have a factor for position
though.

>Ah so what. Those who really care can be impressed, it'll all
>average itself out over time anyway, so let a little wild-west
>fluctuations happen.
>
>
>Best Solution? Reward the other rating leaders (I'm big on the
>Valar.. ;) and ignore this one. Oh publish it, but make no
>mention of it, no quarterly reports or special anything - it's
>there, it exists, that's all.

*** Me to.
Clint

[Richard DEVEREUX]

Problem - Should drops be penalized?

RD: Not unless you want to drive people who have dropped for rock-solid reasons out of the game.

Richard.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jason Bennett]

Richard DEVEREUX wrote:
> Problem - Should drops be penalized?
>
> RD: Not unless you want to drive people who have dropped for
> rock-solid reasons out of the game.
>

The thing is, while some people drop for very good reasons, and hand off
their nation to someone else, irresponsible drops are the #1 reason for
crappy games that I've seen. If you miss a critical turn with a critical
nation, it can completely change the nature of the game.

I want Clint to be able to "absolve" people of drops in good
circumstances, but I fear putting him in that position, where he'll only
make people mad who he rules against.

Maybe this is a good place for voting -- let the teammates decide if the
player dropped "well" or "badly"?

jason

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@...
E pur si muove!

[Urzahil]

<<Jason Bennett wrote:>>
<<Maybe this is a good place for voting -- let the teammates decide if
the player dropped "well" or "badly"?>>

Great idea. I'm not certain it's feasable from a recordkeeping/workload
standpoint for MeGames, but it leaves the decision in the hands of those
it affects. This might actually have an impact on bad drops, as you know
your former teammates will rate you as a "bad drop" unless you do a
graceful handoff before you go.

Admittedly, players who drop due to an emergency might be unfairly
penalized, but it only takes a few seconds to fire off an E-Mail to
former teammates letting them know you have to drop. There aren't many
emergencies that don't leave you at least a few seconds to keep you from
leaving allies high and dry.

Mike Mulka

[Player]

Pandora would be confused...

The only way to be fair to is apply ONE rule to
EVERYONE, period. Make the rule, put it in those
blasted House Rules, and apply it whilst you spend
all the time saved having us do your job's for you
(D.S. would be proud.. ;) working on your other
projects.

If the player is not running a nation at the end of the
game, the player should not be included in any of the game's
tallying. Fair for him, unfair for her, mean here, oops
he didn't deserve it there (who get's to judge...???)

Not worth it. Simple. If you don't finish, for
WHATEVER reason, you don't get the goods. Otherwise,
everyone who was active in the game, for however long
(1 turn pick up, oops, drop again, see my case study
of game 131...) should get full marks (MEGames is on
record saying they simply cannot do it turn by turn for
every game.) The "last player to run a nation" is only
acceptable if he/she was running it at game end (see
my case study for 131 again...).

All or nothing, no exceptions because "exceptions" by
definition are unfair to all.

Brad Brunet

--- Urzahil <Urzahil@...> wrote:
> <<Jason Bennett wrote:>>
> <<Maybe this is a good place for voting -- let the teammates decide
> if
> the player dropped "well" or "badly"?>>
>
> Great idea. I'm not certain it's feasable from a
> recordkeeping/workload
> standpoint for MeGames, but it leaves the decision in the hands of
> those
> it affects. This might actually have an impact on bad drops, as you
> know
> your former teammates will rate you as a "bad drop" unless you do a
> graceful handoff before you go.
>
> Admittedly, players who drop due to an emergency might be unfairly
> penalized, but it only takes a few seconds to fire off an E-Mail to
> former teammates letting them know you have to drop. There aren't
> many
> emergencies that don't leave you at least a few seconds to keep you
> from
> leaving allies high and dry.
>
> Mike Mulka
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[Urzahil]

<<Player wrote:>>
<<If the player is not running a nation at the end of the game, the
player should not be included in any of the game's tallying. Fair for
him, unfair for her, mean here, oops he didn't deserve it there (who
get's to judge...???) Not worth it. Simple. If you don't finish, for
WHATEVER reason, you don't get the goods.>>

The problem with this is that if a side is losing, the losing players
can simply drop and their player rating won't be negatively affected.
(You'd never get a minus rating.) I'd agree with your proposal only if
dropped players can't INCREASE their rating, but anyone who started the
game and didn't finish could have their rating DECREASED if their side
lost, just as if they had stayed in the whole time and ended up on the
losing side. After all, we don't want to actually reward player drops.

Mike Mulka

[Middle Earth PBM Games]

But then they could be on the "not get penalised" group. I agree that then
we would have to make judgement calls - which we strenuously try to avoid
to remain impartial.

Clint
>Problem - Should drops be penalized?
>
>RD: Not unless you want to drive people who have dropped for rock-solid
>reasons out of the game.
>
>Richard.

[corsairs game 101]

>>>Problem - Should drops be penalized?
>>RD: Not unless you want to drive people who have dropped for [good
>>reason].

>The thing is, while some people drop for very good reasons, and hand
>off their nation to someone else, irresponsible drops are the #1
>reason for crappy games that I've seen.

IF the system is used and a drop is not penalized, then this will be one of
those areas open to manipulation. If a drop is not penalized, then a person
wanting a high ranking will bennifit from dropping at the first sign the
game is going badly.

There should also be a distinction between a drop (ME Games has to find a
replacement) and a transfer (the person wanting out plays up until he or
teammates find someone to take the position over). This should be combined
with a "how much longer the game went on" factor.

Drop or transfer, game lasted less than 5 more turns
full loss/gain of points. (Basically over when quit)
Drop game lasted more than 5 turns, team lost or won
full loss of points. (Don't just drop, or you lose points)
Transfer game lasted 5-10 turns, team won/lost
Gain/lose half points (you had a part in the outcome)
Transfer game lasted more than 10 turns
No effect on score. (as much or more of outcome happened after you)

This is just for the score that goes up and down for each win or loss. The
score that is a measure of experience should always go up for the number of
turns played. Also the grudge score should go down even if a transfer and
the game lasts more than 10 turns, as indicated.

The same should be used for picked up positions. If you pick up a position,
and you're eliminated or the game ends within 5 turns, not your fault. No
penalty. If it goes 5-10 turns, you get half the gain or loss. If it does
more than 10, then it is all on you.

Now, how does being eliminated hurt or bennifit you? I think an elimination
should always count agaist you in full, if your team goes on to lose. If
you are eliminated, but your team goes on to win, then you only get half the
gain. If you get no penalty, then someone wanting to protect a score could
intentionally eliminate themselves. If you get full gain, then there would
be no reason not to kamakazi against a foe. This "suicide" would improve
your team's chance of winning, while allowing you to move on to the next
game and next chance of winning points.

Note: I still don't like the idea. I'm just trying to plug gaps open to
abuse, in case the system is imposed.

[Richard DEVEREUX]

----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Bennett
To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Maia and Istari


Richard DEVEREUX wrote:
> Problem - Should drops be penalized?
>
> RD: Not unless you want to drive people who have dropped for
> rock-solid reasons out of the game.
>

The thing is, while some people drop for very good reasons, and hand off
their nation to someone else, irresponsible drops are the #1 reason for
crappy games that I've seen. If you miss a critical turn with a critical
nation, it can completely change the nature of the game.

I want Clint to be able to "absolve" people of drops in good
circumstances, but I fear putting him in that position, where he'll only
make people mad who he rules against.

Maybe this is a good place for voting -- let the teammates decide if the
player dropped "well" or "badly"?

jason
RD: If Harle penalizes a dropper, Harle may well lose that guy as a player. Certainly some droppers are just irresponsible, but others may have a family emergency besides which playing ME and even contacting Harle suddenly do not seem important. For the same reason they don't contact their team-mates. Who are they to judge? Therefore my argument is, give droppers the benefit of the doubt.

If you think a guy has dropped "badly", don't play on the same team next time. Simple.

Richard.



--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@...
E pur si muove!



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Richard DEVEREUX]

----- Original Message -----
From: Urzahil
To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 11:33 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Maia and Istari


<<Player wrote:>>
<<If the player is not running a nation at the end of the game, the
player should not be included in any of the game's tallying. Fair for
him, unfair for her, mean here, oops he didn't deserve it there (who
get's to judge...???) Not worth it. Simple. If you don't finish, for
WHATEVER reason, you don't get the goods.>>

The problem with this is that if a side is losing, the losing players
can simply drop and their player rating won't be negatively affected.
(You'd never get a minus rating.) I'd agree with your proposal only if
dropped players can't INCREASE their rating, but anyone who started the
game and didn't finish could have their rating DECREASED if their side
lost, just as if they had stayed in the whole time and ended up on the
losing side. After all, we don't want to actually reward player drops.

Mike Mulka
RD: I agree with the principle of the same rule for all, but NOT that everyone who drops or is eliminated can't have a vote.

I have already argued that the guy who drops MAY have a rock-solid reason (maybe not, but who's to tell?).

If the members of a team fight to the best of their ability but only two of them are left when they finally decide to call it a day, what about the 8 guys who were eliminated? They did their bit towards making the game and therefore they SHOULD be entitled to a vote just before they go down with their sinking ship.

Richard.




Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[corsairs game 101]

> RD: If Harle penalizes a dropper, Harle may well lose that guy as a
>player. Certainly some droppers are just irresponsible, but others may
>have a family emergency besides which playing ME and even contacting Harle
>suddenly do not seem important. For the same reason they don't contact
>their team-mates. Who are they to judge? Therefore my argument is, give
>droppers the benefit of the doubt.
>
> If you think a guy has dropped "badly", don't play on the same team next
>time. Simple.
>
> Richard.

I've transferred more that my share of games due to "circumstances beyond my
control". These include things like "life going to crap when I leaned my
wife of 10 years had affairs"(yes, plural), couple of years later giving up
on the reconciliation and divorcing the bi..., getting laid off and having
to move 900+ miles to find another job. Little stuff like that got in the
way of the game and forced my to transfer positions on several occasions.

Then there is just the plain old, this game just isn't fun anymore and I
need a break.

That said, I've NEVER dropped a game. I've always continued playing until a
replacement could be found. It usually doesn't take but a turn or two to
find a replacement. With ME Games policy of letting a player of the same
team pick up a dropped position, I see NO reason to just drop a position.
Player's SHOULD be punished for it. Besides, if they are willing to leave
the game over something so small, they are unlikely to care about the points
anyway.

As someone else said, if you do not punish drops, then anyone concerend for
their points will drop as soon as the game starts looking bad. In that way,
they can avoid ever getting dropped points.

Darrell

[Urzahil]

<<Richard DEVEREUX wrote:>>
<<If the members of a team fight to the best of their ability but only
two of them are left when they finally decide to call it a day, what
about the 8 guys who were eliminated? They did their bit towards making
the game and therefore they SHOULD be entitled to a vote just before
they go down with their sinking ship.>>

I agree. That's why I said DROPPED players. In a previous posting, I
specifically acknowledged that someone who is eliminated shouldn't be
penalized in any way, but players who drop frivolously are the scourge
of MePBM. They should, at the very least, not be rewarded. (If they quit
the game for good because of this, it might be bad for MeGames business,
but will probably help the game's fun level in the long run.)

I have yet to see a VIABLE position go empty for more than a turn.
Someone on the team is either willing to pick it up themselves, or know
a friend who will take it. So if a player wants out, it is usually quick
and easy to hand the position off to someone instead of simply dropping.
Even if they don't want to wait and want out NOW, they can simply let
their teammates know they're dropping, and the team can deal with the
situation before any damage is done.

Determining a position's viability is still an issue, but if someone
drops and the team doesn't want to pick the position up, it's probably
not a viable position.

Mike Mulka

[corsairs game 101]

>In a previous posting, I
>specifically acknowledged that someone who is eliminated shouldn't be
>penalized in any way, but players who drop frivolously are the scourge
>of MePBM. They should, at the very least, not be rewarded. (If they quit
>the game for good because of this, it might be bad for MeGames business,
>but will probably help the game's fun level in the long run.)

Unfortunatley, treating drop differently than elimination creates another
loophole that some seeking higher ratings could use to exploit the system.
It would be very easy for a player to "accidentally" buy 10,000 MO vs. 1,000
MO, causing him to be granted points for elimination.

Not that every player will look for loopholes.... What am I saying? We're
gamers. We love analyzing a set of rules, determining the best way to
benifit from them, formulating a plan, putting the plan into action, then
seeing the results. That is what we do.

I can't be the only one that is sitting back and analyzing these ranking
rules to see how I can exploit them to my own advantage, can I?

Darrell

[Grey Squirrel]

Probably not but I would actually enjoy being bottom of these rankings. I
feel you can boast a hell of a lot more if you are bottom of the rankings
without dropping out than being top.

Thomas

> I can't be the only one that is sitting back and analyzing these ranking
> rules to see how I can exploit them to my own advantage, can I?
>
> Darrell

[Steve Mason]

As I stated earlier i once dropped a pos i should not have. However if my
rating said games played-16 dropped before turn 15 -1 vs someone with a
rating games 12 drops 8. Everyone encounters problems from time to time but
not 8 out of 12. This is the value of listing drops.

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard DEVEREUX" <rd@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Maia and Istari

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jason Bennett
> To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Maia and Istari
>
>
> Richard DEVEREUX wrote:
> > Problem - Should drops be penalized?
> >
> > RD: Not unless you want to drive people who have dropped for
> > rock-solid reasons out of the game.
> >
>
> The thing is, while some people drop for very good reasons, and hand off
> their nation to someone else, irresponsible drops are the #1 reason for
> crappy games that I've seen. If you miss a critical turn with a critical
> nation, it can completely change the nature of the game.
>
> I want Clint to be able to "absolve" people of drops in good
> circumstances, but I fear putting him in that position, where he'll only
> make people mad who he rules against.
>
> Maybe this is a good place for voting -- let the teammates decide if the
> player dropped "well" or "badly"?
>
> jason
> RD: If Harle penalizes a dropper, Harle may well lose that guy as a
player. Certainly some droppers are just irresponsible, but others may have
a family emergency besides which playing ME and even contacting Harle
suddenly do not seem important. For the same reason they don't contact
their team-mates. Who are they to judge? Therefore my argument is, give
droppers the benefit of the doubt.
>
> If you think a guy has dropped "badly", don't play on the same team next
time. Simple.
>
> Richard.
>
>
>
> --
> Jason Bennett, jasonab@...
> E pur si muove!
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

[Middle Earth PBM Games]

>As I stated earlier i once dropped a pos i should not have. However if my
>rating said games played-16 dropped before turn 15 -1 vs someone with a
>rating games 12 drops 8. Everyone encounters problems from time to time but
>not 8 out of 12. This is the value of listing drops.


** Okay I am thinking that listing number of games is a good thing. Harder
to do the "dropped" nations though - still can't see an easy way around that.

Clint

[Player]

--- corsairs game 101 <corsairs101@...> wrote:
> I can't be the only one that is sitting back and analyzing these
> ranking
> rules to see how I can exploit them to my own advantage, can I?
>
> Darrell

Exactly what "advantage" are you going to get out of them
after you learn how to manipulate* them?

You've made repeated claims that they will ruin the game and
turn us all into drooling, ratings crazy selfish fiends. The
facts clearly show that the most important 3 of the 4 ratings
are strictly team based. The other one is based entirely on
Victory Points....did I mention MEGames didn't invent them?
They've always been there. If they decide to rename them,
why give them such a hard time?

So, obviuosly, it isn't the proposed ratings formula that is a
problem, as the introduction of various team based ratings on
top of the VP's we ALREADY HAVE AND ALWAYS HAVE HAD will act to
bury them even farther from the gamers mind. This will improve
the team play and the overall gaming experience for all. No,
that can't the problem. The problem seems to be your name:
You don't want it on a "best players" list and you don't want
it on the bottom of your emails.

That problem has nothing to do with Middle Earth Play by Mail,
and thus, I have to agree with the others (Gavin?) who think
this thread has gone beyond the purpose of our egoup.

*Oh yes, as I said at the very beginning of the discussion:
The way to manipulate the ratings, over time and many games
as you continue with your hobby, is to play a good team game,
sacrificing the individual nation needs where necessary, in
order for your team to win more often.

Go ahead, manipulate away, anonymously if you prefer.

Brad Brunet