RE: [mepbmlist] Other companies

[Christopher Engel]

Being very new to the game, At the risk of being blasted I'll still
venture an opinion.

From what I've seen, you guys really do a good job as a company. My only
problem is with some of the mechanics of the game (actualy alot of the
mechanics of the game). I guess alot of that comes down to personal
taste... although I don't think I'm alone on a number of the issues.

The real shame is that even if all the players were in favor of some
change and you guys, yourselves, thought it was a really good idea....
alot of things you can't change because you can't touch the software
engine (which is pretty old, I'm guessing) that the game runs on... I am
correct in that assumption?

That I think is the biggest weak spot in ME Games.




-----Original Message-----
From: Richard DEVEREUX [mailto:rd@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:05 PM
To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Other companies



----- Original Message -----
From: Middle Earth PBM Games
To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:29 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Other companies



> What is that other English speaking company that runs this game?
Damn,
> there isn't one anymore.
>
> RD: There's one in Australia if you want to try that.

*** Not any more I am afraid. They got bought out by us - capitalism
at
its best uh? Note: before we bought them there was no games running
there
though for over a year.

RD: You cornered the market huh? Great play. When are you going
public on the Stock Exchange? Will there be some free shares for
veteran players (like me - must be 12 years' loyal service which is
twice as long as I've ever held a job!)?
Richard.


Note if players aren't happy with our system we try to improve it.
But
changes often mean that some aren't going to be happy. But for the
overall
benefit of the game (and consequently our pocket and your enjoyment)
sometimes I think the slog is worth it. Note there are other
companies out
there that run ME, and other companies that run other games. I can
recommend some of them for you if you want a relatively impartial
(cough)
opinion. Note I am not trying to get rid of any players or force
anyone
out - the option to opt out is there so that it has minimal (I think)
impact on your gaming experience.

Clint



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[Middle Earth PBM Games]

>The real shame is that even if all the players were in favor of some
>change and you guys, yourselves, thought it was a really good idea....
>alot of things you can't change because you can't touch the software
>engine (which is pretty old, I'm guessing) that the game runs on... I am
>correct in that assumption?

Yes - although others might think that it us that is the weak point...
:-) Richard, Chris and a few others have come up with variant games (we've
created a scenario for new players to bring them into the game more slowly)
with which we can modify the way the game is created - but the basic game
is nigh on impossible for us to change.

We're working on a Create your own 1650/2950 set-up but that's for a while
in the future as we need to make sure we can do the programming
that affects the database. (Then 4v4, 8v12 with extra points for s/up etc
can be played out). We're seeing if we can add encounters or change them
as well as many other aspects of database management but at present that's
a pipe-dream.

We have lots of good ideas for changes that could be done, but seeing how
much debate the Ratings had it would be a nightmare to actually implement
them. The only way to get the rights to change the software (as GSI are
very conservative when coming to such changes) is to own GSI, with Decipher
and Tolkien's permission. Very hard to arrange I can assure you.

Clint

[Ovatha Easterling]

Chris: This game is not like any other that I am aware of. It requires
players to deliberately make moral choices. At bottom, that is where this
game's mysteque lies. Most wargames label the same device a
catapult/howitzer/plasmaray depending on the "background". This game is
bound up in human relations/psychology. The digital age and digital
thinking often has diffulty grasping the analogs underlaying the concepts
here.

While I don't know for sure, I can speculate. I suspect that GSI is
deliberately denying Harley the source codes because thay know Harley will
change the game into something that it is not.

>From: "Christopher Engel" <cengel@...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
>Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Other companies
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:31:02 -0400
>
>Being very new to the game, At the risk of being blasted I'll still
>venture an opinion.
>
>From what I've seen, you guys really do a good job as a company. My only
>problem is with some of the mechanics of the game (actualy alot of the
>mechanics of the game). I guess alot of that comes down to personal
>taste... although I don't think I'm alone on a number of the issues.
>
>The real shame is that even if all the players were in favor of some
>change and you guys, yourselves, thought it was a really good idea....
>alot of things you can't change because you can't touch the software
>engine (which is pretty old, I'm guessing) that the game runs on... I am
>correct in that assumption?
>
>That I think is the biggest weak spot in ME Games.
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard DEVEREUX [mailto:rd@...]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:05 PM
>To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Other companies
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Middle Earth PBM Games
> To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:29 PM
> Subject: [mepbmlist] Other companies
>
>
>
> > What is that other English speaking company that runs this game?
>Damn,
> > there isn't one anymore.
> >
> > RD: There's one in Australia if you want to try that.
>
> *** Not any more I am afraid. They got bought out by us - capitalism
>at
> its best uh? Note: before we bought them there was no games running
>there
> though for over a year.
>
> RD: You cornered the market huh? Great play. When are you going
>public on the Stock Exchange? Will there be some free shares for
>veteran players (like me - must be 12 years' loyal service which is
>twice as long as I've ever held a job!)?
> Richard.
>
>
> Note if players aren't happy with our system we try to improve it.
>But
> changes often mean that some aren't going to be happy. But for the
>overall
> benefit of the game (and consequently our pocket and your enjoyment)
> sometimes I think the slog is worth it. Note there are other
>companies out
> there that run ME, and other companies that run other games. I can
> recommend some of them for you if you want a relatively impartial
>(cough)
> opinion. Note I am not trying to get rid of any players or force
>anyone
> out - the option to opt out is there so that it has minimal (I think)
> impact on your gaming experience.
>
> Clint
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
>To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
>Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[Kenneth Weed]

I cannot say from a PBM standpoint, as this and a couple of other PBMs run
by friends are all I have played, but to be honest, every decision made can
be morality laden. Again, its whatever value you give to the decision. I
can choose to "Role Play" a nation...I am the Cloud Lord, ANYONE who does
not agree with me or tries to hinder me is my enemy, and I will destroy
them...perfectly valid considering you are a megalomaniacal wraith...or play
as a team, "the Will of Sauron". But at the same point in time, any game
where there are more than two restricted sides creates that opportunity.
RPGs (D&D, Shadowrun, etc), board games (Diplomacy, Republic of Rome,
Kingmaker, just to name a few off the top of my head) these all work very
much the same way. Like life, morality is a code you use when you make a
decision. This game is on no pedestal because of its moral mystique for me.
I play it, therefore it uses the morality I give it (at least my "forces"
do). However, it is my belief the game can be made better by mechanics
changes, and to prevent these because it wouldn't be "the same game..."
Um...so what? I have played in one of the first Last Alliance games (didnt
like it), one of the first WotR scenarios, (lil better, our team did not gel
fast enough however) because I do not mind playing a game which isnt exactly
ME. ME has flaws, and if you do not think it does, I must regretably
disagree with you. I will not invalidate anyone's opinion, however, I will
have my own. I think the single best thing (besides better customer
service) that Harley has brought to this game is flexibility. Clint, PLEASE
keep making new scenarios, new ideas, new types of games. For Darren (whom
I have played with, good player) yes. Some people will take this as a way
to "beat" everyone else, putting their rank and victory above everything
else. And it will ruin games for some people. For all of the people who
were against Darren, do not believe for an instant that it wont ruin any
games. Many people who play games play them to BEAT others. And this
provides a perfect platform to exclaim their superiority (Um, yeah, its a
game, get over it...won't change my life). My view, as stated before, if it
prevents me from playing the game I want, when I want to play it, and with
whom I want to play it with, I will walk. I hope it doesnt come to that,
but if Clint says it wont have an effect on my ability to do that, then I am
good with that. I try to play a good team game, and to that, I hope the
people that I play with (and hopefully some of the one's I play against)
would like to have me as a teammate. If that is the case, I could care less
about a rank. Fun to me is so much more important than any statistic that
you can put in to "claim a victor".

-Ken

>From: "Ovatha Easterling" <ovatha88@...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Other companies
>Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:03:09 +0000
>
>Chris: This game is not like any other that I am aware of. It requires
>players to deliberately make moral choices. At bottom, that is where this
>game's mysteque lies. Most wargames label the same device a
>catapult/howitzer/plasmaray depending on the "background". This game is
>bound up in human relations/psychology. The digital age and digital
>thinking often has diffulty grasping the analogs underlaying the concepts
>here.
>
>While I don't know for sure, I can speculate. I suspect that GSI is
>deliberately denying Harley the source codes because thay know Harley will
>change the game into something that it is not.

************************************************** **********
I believe in the golden rule...Give as good as you get...
I mean, do unto others as you would have done unto you...

-I dont know who has said it, but it definitely needs to be said

[Ovatha Easterling]

Yes, Ken, you are right. I have enjoued Junta, Kingmaker and Diplomacy
myself. The magnitude of interacting with 24 persons (mostly strangers and
unknowns) over a year or two--as opposed to a few hours with friends--caused
me to forget that"there is nothing new under the sun".

>From: "Kenneth Weed" <watakshi@...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Other companies
>Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:59:56 -0400
>
>I cannot say from a PBM standpoint, as this and a couple of other PBMs run
>by friends are all I have played, but to be honest, every decision made can
>be morality laden. Again, its whatever value you give to the decision. I
>can choose to "Role Play" a nation...I am the Cloud Lord, ANYONE who does
>not agree with me or tries to hinder me is my enemy, and I will destroy
>them...perfectly valid considering you are a megalomaniacal wraith...or
>play
>as a team, "the Will of Sauron". But at the same point in time, any game
>where there are more than two restricted sides creates that opportunity.
>RPGs (D&D, Shadowrun, etc), board games (Diplomacy, Republic of Rome,
>Kingmaker, just to name a few off the top of my head) these all work very
>much the same way. Like life, morality is a code you use when you make a
>decision. This game is on no pedestal because of its moral mystique for
>me.
> I play it, therefore it uses the morality I give it (at least my
>"forces"
>do). However, it is my belief the game can be made better by mechanics
>changes, and to prevent these because it wouldn't be "the same game..."
>Um...so what? I have played in one of the first Last Alliance games (didnt
>like it), one of the first WotR scenarios, (lil better, our team did not
>gel
>fast enough however) because I do not mind playing a game which isnt
>exactly
>ME. ME has flaws, and if you do not think it does, I must regretably
>disagree with you. I will not invalidate anyone's opinion, however, I will
>have my own. I think the single best thing (besides better customer
>service) that Harley has brought to this game is flexibility. Clint,
>PLEASE
>keep making new scenarios, new ideas, new types of games. For Darren (whom
>I have played with, good player) yes. Some people will take this as a way
>to "beat" everyone else, putting their rank and victory above everything
>else. And it will ruin games for some people. For all of the people who
>were against Darren, do not believe for an instant that it wont ruin any
>games. Many people who play games play them to BEAT others. And this
>provides a perfect platform to exclaim their superiority (Um, yeah, its a
>game, get over it...won't change my life). My view, as stated before, if
>it
>prevents me from playing the game I want, when I want to play it, and with
>whom I want to play it with, I will walk. I hope it doesnt come to that,
>but if Clint says it wont have an effect on my ability to do that, then I
>am
>good with that. I try to play a good team game, and to that, I hope the
>people that I play with (and hopefully some of the one's I play against)
>would like to have me as a teammate. If that is the case, I could care
>less
>about a rank. Fun to me is so much more important than any statistic that
>you can put in to "claim a victor".
>
>-Ken
>
> >From: "Ovatha Easterling" <ovatha88@...>
> >Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
> >To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
> >Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Other companies
> >Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:03:09 +0000
> >
> >Chris: This game is not like any other that I am aware of. It requires
> >players to deliberately make moral choices. At bottom, that is where
>this
> >game's mysteque lies. Most wargames label the same device a
> >catapult/howitzer/plasmaray depending on the "background". This game is
> >bound up in human relations/psychology. The digital age and digital
> >thinking often has diffulty grasping the analogs underlaying the
>concepts
> >here.
> >
> >While I don't know for sure, I can speculate. I suspect that GSI is
> >deliberately denying Harley the source codes because thay know Harley
>will
> >change the game into something that it is not.
>
>
>************************************************** **********
>I believe in the golden rule...Give as good as you get...
>I mean, do unto others as you would have done unto you...
>
>-I dont know who has said it, but it definitely needs to be said
>
>
>

[Middle Earth PBM Games]

>
> ME has flaws, and if you do not think it does, I must regretably
>disagree with you.


I agree

I think the single best thing (besides better customer
>service) that Harley has brought to this game is flexibility. Clint, PLEASE
>keep making new scenarios, new ideas, new types of games.


We will do - with player support.

My view, as stated before, if it
>prevents me from playing the game I want, when I want to play it, and with
>whom I want to play it with, I will walk.


My preference is always to see if we can come to a fair compromise or find
something suitable.

>I hope it doesnt come to that,
>but if Clint says it wont have an effect on my ability to do that, then I am
>good with that.


*** Ouch - hope I get it right.

Clint