Destroy PC (exp. for game 225)

[roberto]

I know it has been discussed several times before, anyway the conclusion that have been achieved the previos ties doesn't fit with what happened to me lately. So here I am again:

I've been dismayed recently when 2 small armies, in 2 different games ( one is game 225, the other is an italian game), destroyed a PC of mines in spite of being weaker than the constitution of the PC.

In the first case (game 225) a Khand Easterling army destroyed Caldur of the Corsairs.
The PC defence was 9730 (town/fort with 39 loyalty). The army strength, in the best case ( i mean: morale raised to 100, realations set to Hated, all the variables set to the highest point of the range: i.e. Warlord = 79; Solid Ranks = 75), was only 7393.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

It means that this army got, at least, 32% bonus!!! That's more than the 20% most people talked about ( note that I already included the 100 morale calculating the army strenght).

Moreover this army must have got also a bonus to his constitution since it wasn't wiped out after the battle, even though it should have been.


The other battle was very similar: the QA capital (city/castle with 96 loyalty: defence 29400) was destroyed by 2 armies (Esterlings and Southern Gondor) whose total strength was only 23181. In this case the bonus needed was "only" 27%.
Can't say anything about constitution of these armies since they have been deleted thanks to the Cloud Lord :p

If someone has more "numbers" (I'm referring to the DSs of 225) it could be interesting to see which bonus the Destroy order grants.

Ciao

R.

[Player]

Relations? Nation/Terrain?

Swords? Spells?

Ben's breadth? Matt's BO?

[benmin18]

We're not telling.

*Snicker*

- Ben
Dark Lts.

[helvorn]

Vitamins, lots of vitamins and of course wheaties...

Khamul

[roberto]

As I already said I considered relations as Hated.
Cimate and terrain were well known.

No spells, no arties...

Ben stinking breath?? Could be!!! :D

Vitamins?? For sure!!

Anyway, a part from kidding: I think it's something we should investigate upon.

I don't need infos for game 225 so, if you are so frightened by us that you can't say anything about this game, I can wait until the end of it... :cool:

[Gildring]

I think two big defensive spells would be enough to make up the difference. The Khand starts with a couple of mages right? Shields and Blessings would do the trick.

Some artifacts are known to provide secondary powers, like defensive spells, to non-mages. The DS could have used one of these artifacts. Remember, combat spells are NOT reported in army vs. pop. center combat.

And perhaps an NPC could have played a role too?

Nick

[roberto]

Yeah, I forgot that defensive spells are not shown on battle reports of army vs pop centers.

Regarding NPCs, the Khand had ( and still has) a dragon at his services, but dragons doesn't take part in battles against PCs.
His only role could have been to lower loyalty, but this should happen after the battle, not before. Right?

[Gildring]

My understanding is that dragons are like artifacts; they DO have an effect in the first round of combat. If the first round is army vs. pop. center, then the dragon will add his strength to the army.

The same could be said of combat artifacts in your other game, or any other game: an army with 10,000 pts. worth of combat artifacts WILL have those points if their first battle is vs. a pop. center.

Nick

[Arthedain73]

Nick is right Roberto. The dragon, alone, has firepower enough to overcome the defenses of all but a city/citadel with very high loyalty. The opposing troops could all be MAA, but with enough defnesive spells they might suffer 'minor' losses.

[El Gringo]

Dragons don't involve themselves in PC combat... I can cut'n'paste a turn from my current game to prove it if you like :)

I'd also be interested in conjectures about how low-dmg armies can destroy high-con PC's... the points about defensive spells are irrevlevant since they don't effect the army's offense and PC combat is a one-rounder...

:)

[RKFloyd]

Ha ha ha! I will never reveal my "secrets". Hmm, does this village I happened upon this turn stand a chance? :)


Russ / Khand 225

[Player]

El Gringo: I'm not in this game, but have been around a few of the Dragon in Pop Centre Combat debates. If you ARE willing to share that information from a pdf, I'd love to take a look. Text or Graphic select onto Word? Bitmap? When Arthedain73 says something about game mechanics, you usually take it to the bank. If you have evidence to refute this one, send it along and I'll back you up!

Brad @ bbrunec296@rogers.com

Many thanks in advance!

[Ulrik Bisgaard]

Dragons DO participate in PC combat if no armies are present (so yes, they work like combat-arties), but they don't show up in the battle-report !

Ulrik

[Pallando]

Hold on,

In examples above, there seems to be no defensive army with pop center. However you all seem to be saying that a defensive spell can be cast by someone in the hexe without an army and that it will boost defenses of pop center. Did I read correctly?

This is a rather important peice of information if true, and can change much in a game. especially since it does not come out in turn reports......

It is also in blatant contradiction with rules.

Could someone please confirm that I understand correctly??????????????

Thanks
Pal.

[Per Bovbjerg]

Dragons in 1650 DO work against PC's if there is no defending army involved.
Put shortly dragons only "work" in the first round of combat (Delivering a 30K+ attackbonus), and a defending army will be the first round of combat. In the second round, the army (What is left) will attack the PC, and the dragon wont participate in that combat.

[Arthedain73]

Pallandro: The defensive combat spells that i mentioned were for the attacking army NOT the defending militia.

[El Gringo]

As requested, here are the cut'n'pastes from the turns (before comabt and ofter) in my current 1650 game where a Dragon did _not_ assist in PC destruction when there was no defending army present.

-------------- Turn: Landed on the PC --------------

Army Commander : Commander Sispar Location : @ 1614 in Shore/Plains Climate is Mild
Army morale : 1 Warships : 0 Transports : 0 (4) Travel mode : Evasive
Troops Training Weapon Armor # Troops Troop Type
Hillmen footmen w/spears 17 10 0 816 Heavy Infantry
Baggage Train Leather Bronze Steel Mithril
Weapons - 0 0 0
Armor 0 0 0 0
Food 0 Out of Food !!
War machines 0
Characters traveling with army : - Khuzadrepa.
The Major Town/Castle of Tharbad flying the flag of Cardolan is here.

-------------- Next Turn: Attempting to Destroy the PC --------------

Battle at 1614
In the Mild climate of the Shore/Plains of 1614, a conflict took place about midday under a clear sky.
At the head of a demoralized army rode Commander Sispar of the nation of Rhudaur. The mount on which he rode
stood cautiously at the rear of the battle lines. Behind him the forming ranks were filled with:
Troops Weapons Armor Formations
816 Hillmen footmen w/spears wooden none a mob
The Major Town of Tharbad flying the flag of Cardolan is situated in the Shore/Plains here. It is fortified
by a Castle, and it is under siege or attack.
After the battle.... Sispar's forces found no enemy armies to fight.
The battle for Tharbad was brutal! The attacking forces fought for glory but the defenders fought for their
lives! The battle was in doubt until the very last man fell.
After the attack on the population center.... Sispar's army was destroyed/routed in the attack on the Major
Town. Sispar appeared to have survived. The Major Town has not been damaged. The Castle has not been
affected. The Major Town has been under siege/attack this turn. The Major Town now flies the flag of
Cardolan.

-------------- Same Turn: Character Report Section for the Army Commander--------------

Sispar was located in the Shore/Plains at 1614.
He was ordered to destroy the Major Town of Tharbad. See Combat Messages.
Khuzadrepa has left the army.
He was ordered to move. He accepted the movement orders.
He is currently in the Hills & Rough at 2209.


*** You'll note Khuzadrepa left _post_ combat, so he was there and did not participate. (Oh this should also clear up the misconception that army commanders always die when failing to nuke a PC, as a bonus heh.)

[Fletch]

Roberto;

Once this game is over I'm sure we'll be very happy to reveal our little secrets. But, until you guys surrender we just cant do that! Of course, if you are desperate for an answer, you guys can pack it in and we'll tell you!! :>

Fletch

CL-225

[sibroc]

Hi there,

Originally posted by El Gringo
....As requested, here are the cut'n'pastes from the turns (before comabt and ofter) in my current 1650 game where a Dragon did _not_ assist in PC destruction when there was no defending army present.....


I can confirm that. I'm playing the Eothraim in the game that the battle took place (Game 77_1650).

We knew that Khuzadrepa was with that army and we were kind enough to warn them that they shouldn't keep their hopes up. Off course they didn't listen ;-) (but got lucky and the commander didn't die - which is a first)

Our team has also tried in the past to use a dragon against a PC with NO defending armies with no effect. I don't know how the word got around that dragons work like combat arties I (we) have not seen any proof for this (quite the opposite).

Symeon

[Arthedain73]

Gringo: Your army had a constitution of 8, 160 points. A MT/castle with a loyalty of one has an attack value of 8,585. You had the strength to capture Tharbad (thanks to the dragon) but not the constitution to take the militia hit.

You really should seek out a mentor to help you with the rule minutia, which I know can be both obscure and frustrating. Understand the game maker deliberately tries to be obscure to enhance the 'fog of war'. The most realstic thing about this fantasy game is the heavy emphasis on human interaction and the fog of war.

[Joseph Hanik]

I too am pretty sure that Arthedain73 has the answer right. Dragon or no, if you do not have an army left standing at the end of a combat, the population center survives. The problem with your pdf is not your hit power, but your constitution.

I use a higher number than Per's 30k for a dragon's hit though.

[nanook]

As said above, dragons add a nuclear bonus to the first round of combat, so if no army is present, it applies vs a pc.

From a recent set of turns where we have the full info from both sides and a convential Capture would have failed, I'm convinced the Destroy bonus acts as either Morale at 100 (the results fit perfectly, down to the last man, with Eichmann's combat calculator) or as reducing the defense of the pc (also possible, and perhaps more logical. But the bonus has to be 12%+, not 10%, for the attack to have succeeded as it did. If this is the case, that is done only for purposes of success/failure, and the troop losses are calculated according to the original defense).

[sibroc]

Hi there,

Originally posted by Arthedain73
Gringo: ... Your army had a constitution of 8, 160 points. A MT/castle with a loyalty of one has an attack value of 8,585. You had the strength to capture Tharbad (thanks to the dragon) but not the constitution to take the militia hit.

You really should seek out a mentor to help you with the rule minutia, which I know can be both obscure and frustrating... .

Well,

There is this little thing that I didn't want to mention since our team hasn't been able to test so far. Or to put it more correctly we have tried it but we don't have enough data to verify it.

The rule goes like this: The army that attacks the PC must have enough constitution to SURVIVE the battle (that is to have at least 100 men left when the battle is over) for the dragon to participate in the battle.

We burned the (undefended) Arthedain capital in a previous game with an army that had a dragon. The battle report did not mention a dragon (which is well known) so there is no telling if the dragon participated or not. When the battle was over there was still about 200 HC left.

The problem is that the army alone (plus damage arties, spells) should have enough firepower to destroy the PC anyway (depending on loyalty). It's been difficult to retry this and have any kind of statistical data (you can't always exchange information after the game is over with the opposition).

Only certain thing is that any attempt to use a dragon against an undefended PC with an army that can't survive the attack fails miserably.

Symeon

[DBros]

I can emphatically confirm that dragons DO participate in pop center combat, and that the bonus they provide only occurs in the first round of combat. I have used this fact to great ends over the years.

One of my most recent examples was capturing 2908 with far less inherent army strength than required to overcome the defense of the pop center. The army constitution was high enough to absorb the first round of damage dealt by the city/fort, and with the dragon, had enough strength for the capture.

I have also run into the situation where the dragon did not add enough strength to overcome the defense of the pop center, but the army survived because its constitution was high enough to absorb that all-important first round damage. I'd have to go back into my files to find which dragon it was, but I can say that I calculated his strength at no more than 15k. Had it been higher, I would have taken the pop center.

[Jeppe Skytte Spicker]

I have heard that if you capture a pop with the help of a dragon, you still need the con to survive the damage from the pop to bo able to pull it of. But if you destroy the pop you don't need the con, basicly 100MA with a dragon could destroy a fortified pop, is this correct ? (I can not find this issue addressed in the above postings)

- Jeppe

[DBros]

Not true.

I have yet another recent example: I attempted to destroy 2508 with an army of 300 mixed troops towing Uruial. My army obviously could not withstand the damage dealt by the pop center, but I wanted to test the theory you mention. The army was routed, the pop center was untouched, and my commander lived, taking no wounds.

[Jeppe Skytte Spicker]

OK, thanks.

Any idea why the army commander apparenty survives when he has a dragon with him when he is always ? killed when trying to capture with insufficient con ?

- Jeppe

[Nintelten]

Originally posted by Jeppe Skytte Spicker
I have heard that if you capture a pop with the help of a dragon, you still need the con to survive the damage from the pop to bo able to pull it of. But if you destroy the pop you don't need the con, basicly 100MA with a dragon could destroy a fortified pop, is this correct ? (I can not find this issue addressed in the above postings)

- Jeppe

Actually Jeppe. That exact scenario is the one Gringo posted. And yes that was my army that I exploded :( All part of the learning process hehe.

My army was 810 HI with a Dragon against a Fortified Pop Centre. I went for the destroy and lost. Commander took Zero damage.

One of two armies in this game that I lost to a learning process hehe (first one to a surprise challenge from Argeleb who I paid back by kidnap/execute later though and the blowup on pop center one)

[roberto]

After all discussion I feel like a moron... :(

I had 100 sailormen at Caldur, but, thinking that dragons don't attack PC, I didn't attack the raiding army, in order to save the fleet from certain death.

If I had attacked the army, the dragon would have been wasted against the 100 men, and I would have saved my town...

Stupid, stupid, stupid!!!!!! ;)

[Pallando]

Originally posted by Arthedain73
Pallandro: The defensive combat spells that i mentioned were for the attacking army NOT the defending militia.

OOPS sorry for idiot question.....

[DBros]

I don't have enough data to answer the question about when a commander dies in failed pop center combat. In the 'old days', it was fairly guaranteed that if you attacked a pop center and failed, your commander died. In recent years, I've noted several situations where I expected the commander to die, but he lived. If anyone has a proven rule of thumb on this one, I'd love to hear it. I've heard a couple of theories, but there haven't been enough data points presented to sway my opinion.

[Gildring]

I don't have any complete knowledge myself. But my "guess" is that the closer the army's constitution is to the defensive value of the pop. center, the greater chance of survival for the army commander when he loses the battle.

In game 230, the Corsairs attacked my town/fort (which I had threatened from him previously hehehe) with 1300 hi. His army strength was NOT enough to take the town, so the attack failed. However, his army constitution was greater than the def. value so he survived.

I'm convinced that if his constitution was only slightly less than the defensive value (army, poof!) he still would have survived, probably taking some wounds, but surviving nonetheless.

Nick