Army over runs

[Pechorin]

Hi all,

I had always beleived that a 6 to 1 advantage on a 'small enemy army' resulted in an over run. I just found that not to be the case. In my ME83 grudge match our Dark Lt player had a force under Gothmog which was 6.3 times larger than an Eothraim force under Leofigild. Gothmog was stopped. It was in the forest at 3013.

I have a couple of discussion points from this.
1) Is there a random factor involed with over run?
2) Could terrain have something to do with it?

During the first eight turns of ME83 we over ran thre enemy forces, all on the plains. They over ran one of our forces in the hills and rough.

I was just wondering what some other experiences have been with over runs. Thanks.

Steve

[Arthedain73]

Steve, just about every theory on over runs has been disproven at one time or another. The only one, I'm aware of. that has NOT been disproven is that it is a constitution based action. For example, 800 MAA can be over run by 400 HC and won't act as a blocking force at all.

[Pechorin]

Here are two successful over runs with all factors known:

Army over running 6.89 times troop numbers and 4.06 times constitution

Army over running 7.25 times troop numbers and 5.32 times constitution

Also I just blocked an enemy force in a seperate game. The enemy was atleast 5.02 times larger in consititution but only 3.11 times larger in size. My army was under 500 troops.

Is this information consistent with the constitution theory of blocking banners? (Note* I am using armror factors in these calculations).

Steve

[Arthedain73]

Right, armor would apply to the constitution theory. A numbers ratio just won't work. Has been disproven many times. Then, I guess, it could be highly random.

[Player]

"highly random"...that's one way to put it... I once got a message that I had overrun an enemy, killing all characters, etc...and it never really happened! Enemy army was there and he didn't have any idea what I was talking about. Email to company said I "pushed past" them...go figure...

[nanook]

Can't answer the above questions about ratio or terrain with any certainty, but to add to another piece of the puzzle, I believe overruns occur when the larger army tries to exit a given hex.

They don't actually have to be able to make the move, but they do have to try. Contrary to some claims, it is possible to overrun an army sitting in a fortified pc -- as long as the big army attempts exit -- and conversely, an enormous army won't overrun a dinky one if it is ordered solely to move into the hex.

[Player]

Originally posted by nanook
Contrary to some claims, it is possible to overrun an army sitting in a fortified pc -- as long as the big army attempts exit --

Have you a pdf that states, in order:

"...overran forces of XXXX, killing all characters..."

then

"...was stopped by non-tolerant/friendly fortificatins..."

I've tried a few times and have always been stopped by the fortifications. These attempts have been with greater "ratios" (yes, both numerical AND constitution based...) than other successful overruns. I'm confident on the constitutions from combat result data. Maybe I was randomly unlucky...? But I'd like to see that pdf.

[nanook]

Will look through 'em to confirm. In the ones where you've been stopped, did you have a clearly sufficient force and order to leave the hex?

[Player]

Yes. The move was designed for the overrun, and the forces (both numerical and constitutional) were sufficient by any stretch. I've banged my head against fortifications in this way often enough that I've concluded one is stopped BEFORE the shot at overrun. Consider: you're stopped by the fortifications, you therefore aren't marching crazily on your way out of the hex.... Makes sense, but rationalization is a key human survival skill...so I can be wrong, but as I've guessed and lost on this already, I will require proof.

[nanook]

I bow to your experiences with the attempt.

I'm usually careful about what I post for game mechanics, but I just can't find a pdf with the situation I claimed -- just one that actually took place at a ruins, meaning it was terrain that stopped movement and not the leftover fort.

Sorry to post in error. Go overrun in open spaces!