Re: [mepbmlist] fed armies

[Gavinwj]

If an army with 98% food supplies is treated the same as one with 0% yet a
huge army can be tricked into sharing a single sandwich... This all proves
that the food algorithm is beyond stupid. Yet another item that needs
fixing.

Gavin

bbrunec296@... wrote:

>
> One can always also have 100 cav loaded with food rush out to meet that huge
> HI army that's still a couple of fed turns from Mordor and 780 when they meet
> in order to feed the larger force for it's final push.
>
> Or, one can send a smaller army, say 400 men, with enough food, in conjunction
> with a larger main army with none. Between the 2 armies is a third character.
>
> Small army splits to character, new army will have food at the 765. Character
> transfers command to large army, which is considered fed at 780, thus also fed
> for 85/60 and they all move together. Repeat following turn. Seems
> laborious, but it will work at less cost (in food) then Arthedain trying to
> send 5000 HC to the back door of Mordor...
>
> Mind you, if these guys rotate their 780's, there's a good chance they'llbe
> able to shake any ScoArmies trying to hunt them down also, so there mightbe
> various benefits to pushing the boundaries of the Rules vs Common Sense
> file...
>
> Regards,
>
> Brad
>
>
>>
>> From: Rodrigo Manhaes <rsmanhaes@...>
>> Date: 2003/07/23 Wed PM 02:17:09 EDT
>> To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1391
>>
>> Well, live and learn then, seems the rule of thumb I followed was wrong,
>> and it's been some 3 years already! Curse my "tutors"... :\
>>
>> Sorry for the misinformation, guys! :)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rodrigo Manhães
>>
>> Mike Barber wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Jeff
>>>
>>> Army 1 will definitely be fed in your scenario below.
>>>
>>> An old trick: for same scenario as before but Army #1
>>> only has 150 food, commander 1 xfers 400HI to
>>> commander 2 (order 355 i think) and commander 2 then
>>> xfers army to commander 1 (780). Outcome will be a
>>> fed army of 1000 troops with 50 food left.
>>>
>>> The important thing is, can an army feed its troops
>>> when consumption happens (around order 400)
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> From: "Jeff Wygal" <morgai@...>
>>> Subject: Question about feeding armies
>>>
>>> Army #1 has 500 HI, and 600 food.
>>> Army #2 has 500 HI, and no food.
>>>
>>> Consumption of food happens after transfers, and
>>> before command
>>> orders (around order 400), so army #1 is fed, and army
>>> #2 is not fed.
>>>
>>> Army #2 transfers command (order 785) to the commander
>>> of army #1,
>>> combining the two armies.
>>>
>>> Is the new, combined army considered fed, or not fed,
>>> for the sake
>>> of movement?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> Jeff Wygal
>>
>> --
>> "Mortis In Anima
>> Curam Gero Cutis"
>> Carl Orff - "Carmina Burana"
>>
>>
>>
>> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
>> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
>> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
> 1
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[Ovatha Easterling]

The hardest thing to simulate in any wargame is logistics. The GSI combat
system is based on that of a pre WW I Warsaw math professor who analyzed
Napoleonic combat. The logistics system is based on the pre-industrial
revolution triad of depots, baggage trains and foraging. Most wargames use
cop outs like abstract "lines of supply" or just side-step the matter. Bill
Feild is deserving of credit in that he ATTEMPTED to replicate the triad in
this game.

The Triad:
Depots: If your troops, or those of a friendly ally, are at your pop center
they can draw a limited amount of rations from the depots organized by the
civil authorities.

Baggage trains: The issue at hand, at the moment. GSI made baggage trains
more potent than they really were, but the game provides this choice for
individuals willing to do the 'staff worl' required. A minority of players
in my experience.

Foraging: The most common method of supply in both the pre-industrial
revolution armies and in this game. See, Bill had given the matter some
thought. Essentially, you take the troops to the supply and not the
reverse. It takes time to gather supply, graze the animals, etc. Hence the
movement reduction.

Again. logistics is the hardest item to simulate in any wargame.

>From: Gavinwj <gavinwj@...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
>Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] fed armies
>Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:56:04 +0200
>
>If an army with 98% food supplies is treated the same as one with 0% yet a
>huge army can be tricked into sharing a single sandwich... This all proves
>that the food algorithm is beyond stupid. Yet another item that needs
>fixing.
>
>Gavin
>
>bbrunec296@... wrote:
>
> >
> > One can always also have 100 cav loaded with food rush out to meet that
>huge
> > HI army that's still a couple of fed turns from Mordor and 780 when they
>meet
> > in order to feed the larger force for it's final push.
> >
> > Or, one can send a smaller army, say 400 men, with enough food, in
>conjunction
> > with a larger main army with none. Between the 2 armies is a third
>character.
> >
> > Small army splits to character, new army will have food at the 765.
>Character
> > transfers command to large army, which is considered fed at 780, thus
>also fed
> > for 85/60 and they all move together. Repeat following turn. Seems
> > laborious, but it will work at less cost (in food) then Arthedain trying
>to
> > send 5000 HC to the back door of Mordor...
> >
> > Mind you, if these guys rotate their 780's, there's a good chance
>they'll be
> > able to shake any ScoArmies trying to hunt them down also, so there
>might be
> > various benefits to pushing the boundaries of the Rules vs Common Sense
> > file...
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Brad
> >
> >
> >>
> >> From: Rodrigo Manhaes <rsmanhaes@...>
> >> Date: 2003/07/23 Wed PM 02:17:09 EDT
> >> To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
> >> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1391
> >>
> >> Well, live and learn then, seems the rule of thumb I followed was
>wrong,
> >> and it's been some 3 years already! Curse my "tutors"... :\
> >>
> >> Sorry for the misinformation, guys! :)
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Rodrigo Manhães
> >>
> >> Mike Barber wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hey Jeff
> >>>
> >>> Army 1 will definitely be fed in your scenario below.
> >>>
> >>> An old trick: for same scenario as before but Army #1
> >>> only has 150 food, commander 1 xfers 400HI to
> >>> commander 2 (order 355 i think) and commander 2 then
> >>> xfers army to commander 1 (780). Outcome will be a
> >>> fed army of 1000 troops with 50 food left.
> >>>
> >>> The important thing is, can an army feed its troops
> >>> when consumption happens (around order 400)
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >>> From: "Jeff Wygal" <morgai@...>
> >>> Subject: Question about feeding armies
> >>>
> >>> Army #1 has 500 HI, and 600 food.
> >>> Army #2 has 500 HI, and no food.
> >>>
> >>> Consumption of food happens after transfers, and
> >>> before command
> >>> orders (around order 400), so army #1 is fed, and army
> >>> #2 is not fed.
> >>>
> >>> Army #2 transfers command (order 785) to the commander
> >>> of army #1,
> >>> combining the two armies.
> >>>
> >>> Is the new, combined army considered fed, or not fed,
> >>> for the sake
> >>> of movement?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks in advance.
> >>>
> >>> Jeff Wygal
> >>
> >> --
> >> "Mortis In Anima
> >> Curam Gero Cutis"
> >> Carl Orff - "Carmina Burana"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> >> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> >> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>

[Gavinwj]

You kinda missed the point.

Gavin

Ovatha Easterling wrote:

>
> The hardest thing to simulate in any wargame is logistics. The GSI combat
> system is based on that of a pre WW I Warsaw math professor who analyzed
> Napoleonic combat. The logistics system is based on the pre-industrial
> revolution triad of depots, baggage trains and foraging. Most wargames use
> cop outs like abstract "lines of supply" or just side-step the matter. Bill
> Feild is deserving of credit in that he ATTEMPTED to replicate the triad in
> this game.
>
> The Triad:
> Depots: If your troops, or those of a friendly ally, are at your pop center
> they can draw a limited amount of rations from the depots organized by the
> civil authorities.
>
> Baggage trains: The issue at hand, at the moment. GSI made baggage trains
> more potent than they really were, but the game provides this choice for
> individuals willing to do the 'staff worl' required. A minority of players
> in my experience.
>
> Foraging: The most common method of supply in both the pre-industrial
> revolution armies and in this game. See, Bill had given the matter some
> thought. Essentially, you take the troops to the supply and not the
> reverse. It takes time to gather supply, graze the animals, etc. Hence the
> movement reduction.
>
> Again. logistics is the hardest item to simulate in any wargame.
>
>
>> From: Gavinwj <gavinwj@...>
>> Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>> To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
>> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] fed armies
>> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:56:04 +0200
>>
>> If an army with 98% food supplies is treated the same as one with 0% yeta
>> huge army can be tricked into sharing a single sandwich... This all proves
>> that the food algorithm is beyond stupid. Yet another item that needs
>> fixing.
>>
>> Gavin
>>
>> bbrunec296@... wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> One can always also have 100 cav loaded with food rush out to meet that
>> huge
>>> HI army that's still a couple of fed turns from Mordor and 780 when they
>> meet
>>> in order to feed the larger force for it's final push.
>>>
>>> Or, one can send a smaller army, say 400 men, with enough food, in
>> conjunction
>>> with a larger main army with none. Between the 2 armies is a third
>> character.
>>>
>>> Small army splits to character, new army will have food at the 765.
>> Character
>>> transfers command to large army, which is considered fed at 780, thus
>> also fed
>>> for 85/60 and they all move together. Repeat following turn. Seems
>>> laborious, but it will work at less cost (in food) then Arthedain trying
>> to
>>> send 5000 HC to the back door of Mordor...
>>>
>>> Mind you, if these guys rotate their 780's, there's a good chance
>> they'll be
>>> able to shake any ScoArmies trying to hunt them down also, so there
>> might be
>>> various benefits to pushing the boundaries of the Rules vs Common Sense
>>> file...
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Brad
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Rodrigo Manhaes <rsmanhaes@...>
>>>> Date: 2003/07/23 Wed PM 02:17:09 EDT
>>>> To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>>>> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1391
>>>>
>>>> Well, live and learn then, seems the rule of thumb I followed was
>> wrong,
>>>> and it's been some 3 years already! Curse my "tutors"... :\
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the misinformation, guys! :)
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Rodrigo Manhães
>>>>
>>>> Mike Barber wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> Army 1 will definitely be fed in your scenario below.
>>>>>
>>>>> An old trick: for same scenario as before but Army #1
>>>>> only has 150 food, commander 1 xfers 400HI to
>>>>> commander 2 (order 355 i think) and commander 2 then
>>>>> xfers army to commander 1 (780). Outcome will be a
>>>>> fed army of 1000 troops with 50 food left.
>>>>>
>>>>> The important thing is, can an army feed its troops
>>>>> when consumption happens (around order 400)
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "Jeff Wygal" <morgai@...>
>>>>> Subject: Question about feeding armies
>>>>>
>>>>> Army #1 has 500 HI, and 600 food.
>>>>> Army #2 has 500 HI, and no food.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consumption of food happens after transfers, and
>>>>> before command
>>>>> orders (around order 400), so army #1 is fed, and army
>>>>> #2 is not fed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Army #2 transfers command (order 785) to the commander
>>>>> of army #1,
>>>>> combining the two armies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the new, combined army considered fed, or not fed,
>>>>> for the sake
>>>>> of movement?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff Wygal
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> "Mortis In Anima
>>>> Curam Gero Cutis"
>>>> Carl Orff - "Carmina Burana"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
>>>> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
>>>> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
>>> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
>>> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

> From: Gavinwj <gavinwj@...>
> Date: 2003/07/30 Wed AM 10:37:43 EDT
> To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] fed armies
>
> You kinda missed the point.
>
> Gavin

No he didn't. He gave your point a nod with the qualifier: "In my opinion, a minority of players. [utilize such tactics]".

Ovatha's point being that it's a much more difficult problem than may appear on the surface. Considering his informative email, what would you perceive is a solution? Did Laurence address this in his 2nd Edition compilation?

Brad

1

[Gavinwj]

He gave a good background to the issue, I agree. But, that doesn't change
the fact that the system makes no difference between 99% fed and 0% fed, yet
can be "fooled" by a minor manipulation.

A secondary effect of this is that players routinely consider food supplies
to be totally expendable and an easy way to supplement their income at the
expense of their troops.

Now, we know that GSI will never change the system unless high level
pressure is applied and that will only occur if the Tolkein estate thinks
that the name of ME is being damaged, so I suppose that any idea I or anyone
else might have is totally superfluous. However, if I were designing the
system, I'd allow for troops to be fed for a duration and then forage if
needed. It wouldn't be an "all or nothing" calculation. For example, an army
with 75% of its food needs would have 9 movement points in full and three at
a penalty rate. The check would therefore be done just before movement. This
would mean that combining an unfed army with a fed army would have a
detrimental effect on the fed army. That makes sense as they are now having
to share their food supply with the new arrivals.

Oh, and notice, by the way, that even though you get no benefit from the 99%
food supply, it still gets used up! I assume they must be out partying or
something... :-)

Gavin

bbrunec296@... wrote:

>
>> From: Gavinwj <gavinwj@...>
>> Date: 2003/07/30 Wed AM 10:37:43 EDT
>> To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
>> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] fed armies
>>
>> You kinda missed the point.
>>
>> Gavin
>
> No he didn't. He gave your point a nod with the qualifier: "In my opinion, a
> minority of players. [utilize such tactics]".
>
> Ovatha's point being that it's a much more difficult problem than may appear
> on the surface. Considering his informative email, what would you perceive is
> a solution? Did Laurence address this in his 2nd Edition compilation?
>
> Brad
>
> 1
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

>
> From: Gavinwj <gavinwj@...>
> Date: 2003/07/30 Wed AM 11:14:24 EDT
> To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] fed armies
This
> would mean that combining an unfed army with a fed army would have a
> detrimental effect on the fed army. That makes sense as they are now having
> to share their food supply with the new arrivals.


I agree. Take the % of food supplies and provide that % of the 12 (14) days movement as "fed", rounding Down. This type of programming change might even be possible (I'm speaking technically here...). But considering the forces eat at 400ish, accounting for new recruits, transfers, etc, before movement is impossible, be it Tolkein Enterprises or any other version of a higher power interceding...without an entire new program being created. This is fine for Laurences' 2nd Edition fantasy site.

But dealing with the hard coded reality of the program, could you devise a system that can take both your concerns and the sequential nature of the game into account? Feed armies at the 849 mark maybe or is that too simple?

Brad

1

[Gavinwj]

bbrunec296@... wrote:

>> would mean that combining an unfed army with a fed army would have a
>> detrimental effect on the fed army. That makes sense as they are now having
>> to share their food supply with the new arrivals.
>
>
> I agree. Take the % of food supplies and provide that % of the 12 (14) days
> movement as "fed", rounding Down. This type of programming change might even
> be possible (I'm speaking technically here...). But considering the forces
> eat at 400ish, accounting for new recruits, transfers, etc, before movement is
> impossible, be it Tolkein Enterprises or any other version of a higher power
> interceding...without an entire new program being created. This is fine for
> Laurences' 2nd Edition fantasy site.
>
> But dealing with the hard coded reality of the program, could you devise a
> system that can take both your concerns and the sequential nature of the game
> into account? Feed armies at the 849 mark maybe or is that too simple?

Since being fed is effectively only important for movement, then yes I would
simply move the test to apply at 849. It takes into account all the
transfers and so on at the point where it is needed.

Gavin

[Ovatha Easterling]

Bad staff work deserves punishment. It would be reflected not only in unfed
troops but the non-replacement of equipment, disruptions in the personnel
pipeline, the non-presence of craftsmen and essential specialists. transport
SNFUS, etc. The game designer chose to handle this as you know. It is
these kinds of simplifications that make a non-playable game a playable one.

If we were forced to become logistical wizards few would play the game.

>From: Gavinwj <gavinwj@...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
>Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] fed armies
>Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:56:04 +0200
>
>If an army with 98% food supplies is treated the same as one with 0% yet a
>huge army can be tricked into sharing a single sandwich... This all proves
>that the food algorithm is beyond stupid. Yet another item that needs
>fixing.
>
>Gavin
>
>bbrunec296@... wrote:
>
> >
> > One can always also have 100 cav loaded with food rush out to meet that
>huge
> > HI army that's still a couple of fed turns from Mordor and 780 when they
>meet
> > in order to feed the larger force for it's final push.
> >
> > Or, one can send a smaller army, say 400 men, with enough food, in
>conjunction
> > with a larger main army with none. Between the 2 armies is a third
>character.
> >
> > Small army splits to character, new army will have food at the 765.
>Character
> > transfers command to large army, which is considered fed at 780, thus
>also fed
> > for 85/60 and they all move together. Repeat following turn. Seems
> > laborious, but it will work at less cost (in food) then Arthedain trying
>to
> > send 5000 HC to the back door of Mordor...
> >
> > Mind you, if these guys rotate their 780's, there's a good chance
>they'll be
> > able to shake any ScoArmies trying to hunt them down also, so there
>might be
> > various benefits to pushing the boundaries of the Rules vs Common Sense
> > file...
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Brad
> >
> >
> >>
> >> From: Rodrigo Manhaes <rsmanhaes@...>
> >> Date: 2003/07/23 Wed PM 02:17:09 EDT
> >> To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
> >> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1391
> >>
> >> Well, live and learn then, seems the rule of thumb I followed was
>wrong,
> >> and it's been some 3 years already! Curse my "tutors"... :\
> >>
> >> Sorry for the misinformation, guys! :)
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Rodrigo Manhães
> >>
> >> Mike Barber wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hey Jeff
> >>>
> >>> Army 1 will definitely be fed in your scenario below.
> >>>
> >>> An old trick: for same scenario as before but Army #1
> >>> only has 150 food, commander 1 xfers 400HI to
> >>> commander 2 (order 355 i think) and commander 2 then
> >>> xfers army to commander 1 (780). Outcome will be a
> >>> fed army of 1000 troops with 50 food left.
> >>>
> >>> The important thing is, can an army feed its troops
> >>> when consumption happens (around order 400)
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >>> From: "Jeff Wygal" <morgai@...>
> >>> Subject: Question about feeding armies
> >>>
> >>> Army #1 has 500 HI, and 600 food.
> >>> Army #2 has 500 HI, and no food.
> >>>
> >>> Consumption of food happens after transfers, and
> >>> before command
> >>> orders (around order 400), so army #1 is fed, and army
> >>> #2 is not fed.
> >>>
> >>> Army #2 transfers command (order 785) to the commander
> >>> of army #1,
> >>> combining the two armies.
> >>>
> >>> Is the new, combined army considered fed, or not fed,
> >>> for the sake
> >>> of movement?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks in advance.
> >>>
> >>> Jeff Wygal
> >>
> >> --
> >> "Mortis In Anima
> >> Curam Gero Cutis"
> >> Carl Orff - "Carmina Burana"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> >> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> >> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>

[Gavinwj]

Middle Earth armies are Dark Age armies at best. They did not have staffs.
They have leaders and that's it.

I'm not arguing for a logistical game, I'm arguing for a better system, and
one which has better internal consistency to boot. (See another post to Brad
for the details.)

Don't attribute arguments to me that I haven't proposed.

Gavin

Ovatha Easterling wrote:

>
> Bad staff work deserves punishment. It would be reflected not only in unfed
> troops but the non-replacement of equipment, disruptions in the personnel
> pipeline, the non-presence of craftsmen and essential specialists. transport
> SNFUS, etc. The game designer chose to handle this as you know. It is
> these kinds of simplifications that make a non-playable game a playable one.
>
> If we were forced to become logistical wizards few would play the game.
>
>
>> From: Gavinwj <gavinwj@...>
>> Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>> To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
>> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] fed armies
>> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:56:04 +0200
>>
>> If an army with 98% food supplies is treated the same as one with 0% yeta
>> huge army can be tricked into sharing a single sandwich... This all proves
>> that the food algorithm is beyond stupid. Yet another item that needs
>> fixing.
>>
>> Gavin
>>
>> bbrunec296@... wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> One can always also have 100 cav loaded with food rush out to meet that
>> huge
>>> HI army that's still a couple of fed turns from Mordor and 780 when they
>> meet
>>> in order to feed the larger force for it's final push.
>>>
>>> Or, one can send a smaller army, say 400 men, with enough food, in
>> conjunction
>>> with a larger main army with none. Between the 2 armies is a third
>> character.
>>>
>>> Small army splits to character, new army will have food at the 765.
>> Character
>>> transfers command to large army, which is considered fed at 780, thus
>> also fed
>>> for 85/60 and they all move together. Repeat following turn. Seems
>>> laborious, but it will work at less cost (in food) then Arthedain trying
>> to
>>> send 5000 HC to the back door of Mordor...
>>>
>>> Mind you, if these guys rotate their 780's, there's a good chance
>> they'll be
>>> able to shake any ScoArmies trying to hunt them down also, so there
>> might be
>>> various benefits to pushing the boundaries of the Rules vs Common Sense
>>> file...
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Brad
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Rodrigo Manhaes <rsmanhaes@...>
>>>> Date: 2003/07/23 Wed PM 02:17:09 EDT
>>>> To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>>>> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1391
>>>>
>>>> Well, live and learn then, seems the rule of thumb I followed was
>> wrong,
>>>> and it's been some 3 years already! Curse my "tutors"... :\
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the misinformation, guys! :)
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Rodrigo Manhães
>>>>
>>>> Mike Barber wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> Army 1 will definitely be fed in your scenario below.
>>>>>
>>>>> An old trick: for same scenario as before but Army #1
>>>>> only has 150 food, commander 1 xfers 400HI to
>>>>> commander 2 (order 355 i think) and commander 2 then
>>>>> xfers army to commander 1 (780). Outcome will be a
>>>>> fed army of 1000 troops with 50 food left.
>>>>>
>>>>> The important thing is, can an army feed its troops
>>>>> when consumption happens (around order 400)
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "Jeff Wygal" <morgai@...>
>>>>> Subject: Question about feeding armies
>>>>>
>>>>> Army #1 has 500 HI, and 600 food.
>>>>> Army #2 has 500 HI, and no food.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consumption of food happens after transfers, and
>>>>> before command
>>>>> orders (around order 400), so army #1 is fed, and army
>>>>> #2 is not fed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Army #2 transfers command (order 785) to the commander
>>>>> of army #1,
>>>>> combining the two armies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the new, combined army considered fed, or not fed,
>>>>> for the sake
>>>>> of movement?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff Wygal
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> "Mortis In Anima
>>>> Curam Gero Cutis"
>>>> Carl Orff - "Carmina Burana"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
>>> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

[Tony Zbaraschuk]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 05:14:24PM +0200, Gavinwj wrote:
> He gave a good background to the issue, I agree. But, that doesn't change
> the fact that the system makes no difference between 99% fed and 0% fed, yet
> can be "fooled" by a minor manipulation.

Well, one that involves an additional character and a couple of orders,
which is not necessarily "small". Just think of it as the local army
commander and his loyal buddy making "local" food arrangements instead
of relying on shipments from the imperial granaries :)

(An ideal system would involve armies automatically taking food from
the areas they march through. One could argue that this is already
reflected in the different MP costs for varying terrains.)

Tony Z

--
Though no man can draw a stroke between the confines of day and night,
yet light and darkness are upon the whole tolerably distinguishable.
--Edmund Burke

[Tony Zbaraschuk]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 04:21:58PM +0000, Ovatha Easterling wrote:
> Bad staff work deserves punishment. It would be reflected not only in unfed
> troops but the non-replacement of equipment, disruptions in the personnel
> pipeline, the non-presence of craftsmen and essential specialists. transport
> SNFUS, etc. The game designer chose to handle this as you know. It is
> these kinds of simplifications that make a non-playable game a playable one.
>
> If we were forced to become logistical wizards few would play the game.

Right. Your loyal trained staff takes care of those issues.

I, too, would generally be in favor of moving the "army fed" check to
849. You could still use a smaller army to feed a larger one, but
to do so it would have to bring enough food along. (Thus neatly
simulating the occasional "provision convoy" of which one hears so
much in the wars of Marlborough...)

Tony Z
--
Though no man can draw a stroke between the confines of day and night,
yet light and darkness are upon the whole tolerably distinguishable.
--Edmund Burke

[Tony Zbaraschuk]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 06:53:27PM +0200, Gavinwj wrote:
> Middle Earth armies are Dark Age armies at best. They did not have staffs.

That may be true of the Woodmen and some of the Orcs, but Gondor was an
empire (albeit in decay) and therefore must have had a highly trained
civil service. Theoden's muster took some time, and had some concern
for supplies (note the King's comment to the herald of Gondor "if we
ride now, we must ride light, with but meal and water enough to last
us into battle" and the reply "We have very great store long prepared")
Of course, our hobbit chroniclers didn't spend much time thinking
about that side of things, so we don't see much of it in the _Lord
of the Rings_.

As far as Sauron's empire goes, who do you think created bureaucracy? :)

> They have leaders and that's it.

Well, um, no, they have a lot more: it's just abstracted away in the
interests of better gaming.

> I'm not arguing for a logistical game, I'm arguing for a better system, and
> one which has better internal consistency to boot. (See another post to Brad
> for the details.)

One can have the computer take care of the logistical details. The
difficulty is that the players need to know how far their army can
march each turn, so any system in use has to be comprehensible to the
players _without_ making it into a logistical game.

Tony Z


--
Though no man can draw a stroke between the confines of day and night,
yet light and darkness are upon the whole tolerably distinguishable.
--Edmund Burke

[Gavinwj]

Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:

>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 06:53:27PM +0200, Gavinwj wrote:
>> Middle Earth armies are Dark Age armies at best. They did not have staffs.
>
> That may be true of the Woodmen and some of the Orcs, but Gondor was an
> empire (albeit in decay) and therefore must have had a highly trained
> civil service. Theoden's muster took some time, and had some concern
> for supplies (note the King's comment to the herald of Gondor "if we
> ride now, we must ride light, with but meal and water enough to last
> us into battle" and the reply "We have very great store long prepared")

Think late Roman then. (This is a good argument for Laurence's design to
differentiate more greatly between the various nations.) As for mustering,
that still allows for a Dark Ages army. After all, it takes time to round
everybody up from whatever else they might be doing. :-)

> As far as Sauron's empire goes, who do you think created bureaucracy? :)
>
>> They have leaders and that's it.
>
> Well, um, no, they have a lot more: it's just abstracted away in the
> interests of better gaming.

Er, I meant that Dark Age armies had leaders rather than staffs. The idea of
a staff didn't come into being until the age of the professional army.

Gavin

[Richard Farrer]

The check should be at 829 to handle navies.

It also seems to make sense as this would allow you to 780 a well-supplied army into an unsupplied one and end up with the whole lot fed.

Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Zbaraschuk
To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] fed armies


On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 04:21:58PM +0000, Ovatha Easterling wrote:
> Bad staff work deserves punishment. It would be reflected not only in unfed
> troops but the non-replacement of equipment, disruptions in the personnel
> pipeline, the non-presence of craftsmen and essential specialists. transport
> SNFUS, etc. The game designer chose to handle this as you know. It is
> these kinds of simplifications that make a non-playable game a playable one.
>
> If we were forced to become logistical wizards few would play the game.

Right. Your loyal trained staff takes care of those issues.

I, too, would generally be in favor of moving the "army fed" check to
849. You could still use a smaller army to feed a larger one, but
to do so it would have to bring enough food along. (Thus neatly
simulating the occasional "provision convoy" of which one hears so
much in the wars of Marlborough...)


Tony Z
--
Though no man can draw a stroke between the confines of day and night,
yet light and darkness are upon the whole tolerably distinguishable.
--Edmund Burke


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[Tony Zbaraschuk]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 07:47:38PM +0200, Gavinwj wrote:
> Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:
> >
> > Well, um, no, they have a lot more: it's just abstracted away in the
> > interests of better gaming.
>
> Er, I meant that Dark Age armies had leaders rather than staffs. The idea of
> a staff didn't come into being until the age of the professional army.

The idea of a _permanent professional_ staff, no.

But one of the businesses of government from the beginning has
been insuring that military supplies are present and the army
is fed... they may not have full-time trained professional staffs,
but your characters in MEPBM do have assistants, scribes , couriers,
message-bearers, and other things that ensure that their orders
are carried out. They don't pack all 1000 units of food into the
army's baggage train by hand :)

Tony Z

--
Though no man can draw a stroke between the confines of day and night,
yet light and darkness are upon the whole tolerably distinguishable.
--Edmund Burke