Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Colour Maps

[Ovatha Easterling]

Colin. I know you are friends with the Harley staff and it is alright if you
praise them.

Myself, when I print the color map in B&W the Free icons disappear in the
background clutter. Also, I wished Harley was less aggressive in injecting
itself in this game. I admit I'm jaundiced: Back in GSI game 313, when
Harley took over, they allowed the Mordor DS to fill the dropped DS
positions and did not tell the FP that this was being done. This was around
turn 20 and it was mighty disconcerting to have a DS nation suddenly arise
from the grave, to your rear, after being idle for four to ten turns. My
personal preference would be for Harley to administer the game and stay out
of it.

Some of what you say about GSI is justified, I have been on the wrong end of
their business practices. But they are not (or were not) lazy. They
produced a product we all love and they are proud of their baby. Harley is
NOT given the source codes because Feild and Stassun know they would cut it
apart and resew it into their own image. Yes, I'm talking Frankenstein
here. A company that produces Automagic, Palantir, etc, ets can not resist
tinkering with the mechanics. Let me say that would be a BAD thing.

>From: "Colin Forbes" <colin@...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Colour Maps
>Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 01:37:35 -0000
>
>Hi,
>Just got my first turns with colour maps and loved them. I' not too
>sure yet whether there's much practical benefit, though one thing that
>does spring to mind is that it's much easier tell where there's a
>minor river next to a mountain hex (black next to black was never good).
>
>The thing that stood out about middle Earth when it was first launched
>was the appearance of the turns. at the time most PBM turns were
>printed on dot-matix printers, and often on horrible gatefold paper at
>that. MEPBM had nice fonts (since largely lost, alas), character
>pictures and wonderfully easy to read graphical maps. Anyone wanting a
>contrast should look at the maps you still get with Austerlitz - full
>of vital info, but impossible to take in at a glance.
>
>Sadly this initial gorgeousness has not been improved upon over the
>past decade - part of the overarching stupidity of the GSI business
>plan, ie get a product and live on the profits without making
>continual improvements. Happily Harlequin understand the necessity of
>keeping the ball of progress rolling a lot better that the game
>designers. colour maps are a leap forward - or rather a leap to catch
>up with other PBM games who have sadly overtaken MEPBM in the
>presentation stakes over the past 10 years. Now if only those nice
>fonts can be restored .. and better scans of the gorgeous original
>character artwork made, then MEPBMwill once again look snappy and
>contemporary.
>
>Kudos to Harlequin - sorry, *M.E. Games Ltd*, for making what
>improvements they can while being hamstrung by lazy and lacklustre
>programmers at GSI.
>
>Keep up the good work!
>
>Colin
>

[Ovatha Easterling]

Colin, I intended no offense to you personally, and please accept my apology
for offense taken.

While many of the readers of this forum know my idendity, I don't provide
it to Harley because I do NOT want a dialogue with them in this forum.

While on the subject of offense, keep in mind calling two people 'lazy' whom
you have never met might be considered offensive--even if you have a thick
hide.

>From: "Colin Forbes" <colin@...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Colour Maps
>Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 15:24:36 -0000
>
>"Ovatha Easterling" (whoever he is) wrote ...
>
> > Colin. I know you are friends with the Harley staff and
> > it is alright if you praise them.
>
>Hmm, I think I object to this. Firstly You know my name but I don't
>know yours. Secondly whether or not I am friends with anyone at Harly
>has nothing to do with my opinions of the game. If you are suggesting
>that my views *would* be affected, then you are questioning my
>objectivity. Given the, um tough line I have taken in the past with
>clint and the lads overcertain issues, this is an absurd suggestion.
>
>
> > Also, I wished Harley was less aggressive in injecting
> > itself in this game. I admit I'm jaundiced: Back in GSI game 313,
> > when Harley took over, they allowed the Mordor DS to fill the
> > dropped DS positions and did not tell the FP that this was being
> > done.
>
>That's not injecting themselves into a game, that's standard practice
>in PBMs throughout the UK. It's just a cultural difference. Whatever
>you may think, this is NOT done to maximise the profit, it's done to
>make sure the games are closely fought and fun for all. In the long
>run that's what brings the profit (such as it is!) :-)
>
>
> > But they are not (or were not) lazy. They
> > produced a product we all love and they are proud of their baby.
>
>So producing a game over 10 years ago and doing diddly squat to it
>since is not being lazy? Yes there was 2950, but that hardly required
>much work and fourth age (while a good game) again addresses none of
>the actual structural faults of the game.
>
>GSI do not respond to player suggestions (even with a "thanks for your
>opinion") and have done little or nothing to promote the game to a
>wider audience.
>
>
> > Harley is NOT given the source codes because Feild and Stassun
> > know they would cut it apart and resew it into their own image.
> > Yes, I'm talking Frankenstein here. A company that produces
> > Automagic, Palantir, etc, ets can not resist tinkering with the
> > mechanics. Let me say that would be a BAD thing.
>
>I utterly disagree both on a personal level and for business reasons.
>Personally I feel - and have felt since the game was first launched -
>that there are many areas of the game which could be tinkered with.
>
>On a business level, any game needs to adapt or die. Your preferred
>model of administration only would have the game dying. A look at the
>fall in numbers of GSI players over the years of their
>'administration', would be revealing. I have been playing this game
>for 10 years, i want to play it in another 10 years -- yet without the
>'tinkering' ME Games are providing, the game will not survive. Player
>numbers would fall and the game would eventually become commercially
>non-profitable. As things stand GSI are taking a huge cut of the
>profits and doing nothing in return. Any normal supplier of a software
>product is expected to provide support and regular updates. Why does
>this not apply to GSI?
>
>Anyway, I've said my piece and I'm not going to respond to anything
>else Mr Ovatha Easterlings posts unless he reveals his name.
>
>Colin "not afraid to have his opinions linked to his real name" Forbes
>

[Gavinwj]

Ovatha Easterling wrote:

> While many of the readers of this forum know my idendity, I don't provide
> it to Harley because I do NOT want a dialogue with them in this forum.

So why bother posting, then?

Gavin

[Ovatha Easterling]

Colin, fair enough. As a paying customer can I suggest thet Harley is
'intrusive"?

>From: "Colin Forbes" <colin@...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Colour Maps
>Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 18:12:49 -0000
>
>Hi,
>
> > Colin, I intended no offense to you personally, and please
> > accept my apology for offense taken.
>
>Apology accepted :-)
>
> > While many of the readers of this forum know my idendity, I don't
> > provide it to Harley because I do NOT want a dialogue with them in
> > this forum.
>
>Interesting in itsself. Personally I don't understand the need for
>anonymity on a generally friendly forum like this, but that's your
>choice, so fair enough.
>
> > While on the subject of offense, keep in mind calling two people
> > 'lazy' whom you have never met might be considered offensive--
> > even if you have a thick hide.
>
>Far be it from me to criticise the staff of a company. The
>productivity or otherwise of staff is a matter for the company
>concerned. However as a paying customer I believe I am entitled to
>call a company lazy without being offensive.
>
>Colin
>

[Ovatha Easterling]

I enjoy chatting with you Gavin. You have a sharp wit.

>From: Gavinwj <gavinwj@...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
>Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Colour Maps
>Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 19:55:40 +0200
>
>Ovatha Easterling wrote:
>
> > While many of the readers of this forum know my idendity, I don't
>provide
> > it to Harley because I do NOT want a dialogue with them in this forum.
>
>So why bother posting, then?
>
>Gavin
>

[Ovatha Easterling]

Colin, a little clarification please. If the intent is to make sure the
games are closely fought, how does that jive with Clint's announcement that
most games run 15 to 20 turns?
> >
> >That's not injecting themselves into a game, that's standard practice
> >in PBMs throughout the UK. It's just a cultural difference. Whatever
> >you may think, this is NOT done to maximise the profit, it's done to
> >make sure the games are closely fought and fun for all. In the long
> >run that's what brings the profit (such as it is!) :-)
> >
> >

[R.K.Floyd]

> While many of the readers of this forum know my idendity, I don't provide
> it to Harley because I do NOT want a dialogue with them in this forum.

* Is that because you can't match wits with them?


-Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ovatha Easterling" <ovatha88@...>
To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Colour Maps


> Colin, I intended no offense to you personally, and please accept my
apology
> for offense taken.
>
> While many of the readers of this forum know my idendity, I don't provide
> it to Harley because I do NOT want a dialogue with them in this forum.
>
> While on the subject of offense, keep in mind calling two people 'lazy'
whom
> you have never met might be considered offensive--even if you have a thick
> hide.
>
>
> >From: "Colin Forbes" <colin@...>
> >Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
> >To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
> >Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Colour Maps
> >Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 15:24:36 -0000
> >
> >"Ovatha Easterling" (whoever he is) wrote ...
> >
> > > Colin. I know you are friends with the Harley staff and
> > > it is alright if you praise them.
> >
> >Hmm, I think I object to this. Firstly You know my name but I don't
> >know yours. Secondly whether or not I am friends with anyone at Harly
> >has nothing to do with my opinions of the game. If you are suggesting
> >that my views *would* be affected, then you are questioning my
> >objectivity. Given the, um tough line I have taken in the past with
> >clint and the lads overcertain issues, this is an absurd suggestion.
> >
> >
> > > Also, I wished Harley was less aggressive in injecting
> > > itself in this game. I admit I'm jaundiced: Back in GSI game 313,
> > > when Harley took over, they allowed the Mordor DS to fill the
> > > dropped DS positions and did not tell the FP that this was being
> > > done.
> >
> >That's not injecting themselves into a game, that's standard practice
> >in PBMs throughout the UK. It's just a cultural difference. Whatever
> >you may think, this is NOT done to maximise the profit, it's done to
> >make sure the games are closely fought and fun for all. In the long
> >run that's what brings the profit (such as it is!) :-)
> >
> >
> > > But they are not (or were not) lazy. They
> > > produced a product we all love and they are proud of their baby.
> >
> >So producing a game over 10 years ago and doing diddly squat to it
> >since is not being lazy? Yes there was 2950, but that hardly required
> >much work and fourth age (while a good game) again addresses none of
> >the actual structural faults of the game.
> >
> >GSI do not respond to player suggestions (even with a "thanks for your
> >opinion") and have done little or nothing to promote the game to a
> >wider audience.
> >
> >
> > > Harley is NOT given the source codes because Feild and Stassun
> > > know they would cut it apart and resew it into their own image.
> > > Yes, I'm talking Frankenstein here. A company that produces
> > > Automagic, Palantir, etc, ets can not resist tinkering with the
> > > mechanics. Let me say that would be a BAD thing.
> >
> >I utterly disagree both on a personal level and for business reasons.
> >Personally I feel - and have felt since the game was first launched -
> >that there are many areas of the game which could be tinkered with.
> >
> >On a business level, any game needs to adapt or die. Your preferred
> >model of administration only would have the game dying. A look at the
> >fall in numbers of GSI players over the years of their
> >'administration', would be revealing. I have been playing this game
> >for 10 years, i want to play it in another 10 years -- yet without the
> >'tinkering' ME Games are providing, the game will not survive. Player
> >numbers would fall and the game would eventually become commercially
> >non-profitable. As things stand GSI are taking a huge cut of the
> >profits and doing nothing in return. Any normal supplier of a software
> >product is expected to provide support and regular updates. Why does
> >this not apply to GSI?
> >
> >Anyway, I've said my piece and I'm not going to respond to anything
> >else Mr Ovatha Easterlings posts unless he reveals his name.
> >
> >Colin "not afraid to have his opinions linked to his real name" Forbes
> >
>
>

[Gavinwj]

Flattery will get you everywhere. :-)

Gavin

Ovatha Easterling wrote:

>
> I enjoy chatting with you Gavin. You have a sharp wit.
>
>
>> From: Gavinwj <gavinwj@...>
>> Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>> To: <mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
>> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Colour Maps
>> Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 19:55:40 +0200
>>
>> Ovatha Easterling wrote:
>>
>>> While many of the readers of this forum know my idendity, I don't
>>> provide
>>> it to Harley because I do NOT want a dialogue with them in this forum.
>>
>> So why bother posting, then?
>>
>> Gavin

[Ovatha Easterling]

Colin, as you wish. If you are doing this at the request of a third person
that might reflect on your objectivity. You certainly were not interested
in my identity when you published my writings in "Bree", without
ID/inquiry/permission.

>From: "Colin Forbes" <colin@...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>To: mepbmlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Colour Maps
>Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 00:50:05 -0000
>
>"Ovatha Easterling" wrote:
>
> > Colin, a little clarification please.
>
>I'd be delighted to clarify and/or discuss anything you want. However
>I'd rather not do this whilst you remain anonymous. If you would like
>to email me directly to continue our discussion by all means do so
>(clin@...).
>
>Colin
>

>
> From: "Colin Forbes" <colin@...>
> Seriously, by all means write down your views of the game and ME
> Games' running of it and I shall be delighted to publish it in Bree.

Well, I'm as of right now much more eager for the next Bree than normal... ;)

Brad

1