Gunboat Game Devotees

[Nimdraug]

I’m starting this thread for Gunboat game devotees and those who are interested in learning more about the Gunboat variant of ME PBM.

The hope is that this thread will serve as a “meeting place” for players who already enjoy the Gunboat variant. Here Gunboat players can share experiences, insights and ideas. The hope also is that through this thread more players will be encouraged to give the Gunboat variant a try.

The Gunboat variant has three main rules.
1) Each player controls 2 nations of the same allegiance. No neutrals; 12 nations per allegiance.
2) No diplomacy or communication between players in the same Gunboat game is allowed. Players implicitly give their word to obey this rule when they sign up for a Gunboat game. Gunboat players are honor-bound not to attempt to communicate with other players in the same Gunboat game. Please do not try to use this thread to try to undermine or circumvent this rule.
3) Players may not perform hostile actions against other nations or characters of the same allegiance.

Here are a few of the topics I would like to throw out for discussion on this thread.

What makes Gunboat an attractive and engaging ME PBM variant?
What are your favorite nation combinations in Gunboat?
What are some common pitfalls to avoid in Gunboat?
What winning strategies have you used?
What unique or unusual Gunboat experiences have you had (I.e., experiences that you normally would not have in the standard game)?
What are the main differences between 1650 Gunboat and 2950 Gunboat?

OK, let's hear from all you Gunboat players -- past, present and future!

[Jeppe Skytte Spicker]

Hi Nimdraug

I have nothing intelligente to ad (for a change ;)) but I am looking forward to playing my first 1650 GB game.

Just wanted to say good initiative. Looking forward to see all you vets posting your guld nuggets here.

- Jeppe

[Nimdraug]

Jeppe,
Glad to see your post on this thread. And glad to hear you say you're on board for the next 1650 GB game.

But I must disagree with you: you do have something intelligent to add. Why did you sign up GB? What do excpect and hope to get out of the GB experience?

[Nick F]

Hey, great thread! Good idea; spread the word about Gunboat games. I really like GB myself. I'm currently playing in a 1650 GB game. So I hope this thread works out well for all GB fans!

Hey, Jeppe! I signed up for the 2950 GB with Celebion and saw your post about signing up for the next 1650 GB. Well, you talked me into it. I've signed up for the next 1650 GB as well! But that will have to be my limit for awhile. Man, I can't wait to get started! ;)

[Nimdraug]

Well-said, Celebion. I agree wholeheartedly with your comments.

The standard game had become tedious for me in several ways. The enormous amount of email that was sent to me each day eventually became annoying. The forwarding of turnsheets each turn to every other team member became burdensome -- and it definitely detracted from the "mystery" of the game, as you put it. I'm one of those who likes to role-play a bit while playing this fantastic game; so for me the element of mystery and wonder is important.

Team planning had also become burdensome and tedious. Sometimes it seemed mechanical and wooden to me with the consequence that there was little joy in victory and too often a feeling of great bitterness in defeat ("that jackass didn't execute the army maneuver correctly," etc.).

Like you, I am considering making GB the only ME PBM game I will play (I might make an exception for 4th Age Limited Agent games). I love the "edge" of planning and ordering my nations on my own and trying to assist my fellow allegiance nations without knowing what their plans and needs are. The excitement and thrill of GB surprised me. I joined GB just to see what it was like. I got hooked on it in a big way. GB has breathed new life into ME PBM for me.

I hope to write a GB strategy article or a GB game analysis for "News from Bree" sometime in the future. But until that time, I welcome any strategy ideas or insights from other GB devotees.

[Nimdraug]

Celebion, thanks for the note about the articles. I read the GB game account from the player who had the Dragon Lord/Corsairs duo. It was an excellent bit of writing and analysis. I highly recommend it. Anyone who hasn't played GB and is wondering what it's like can get a good feel for the GB variant from that article.

I haven't come across the other one. You said it was the QA. That would have to be the QA/Dog Lord duo. I'll browse around in the "News from Bree" to see if I come across it.

What I'll try to do is look up both articles andpost the volume numbers and authors' names here for others to reference.

Oh, and welcome to Nic F. Glad to see you on board with GB.

[mikesankey]

I wrote the article on Gunboat from the view of my Dragon Lord/Corsair positions. It appeared in Bree 23 (June 2003). An article from Bryn Lloyd who played QA/Fire King appeared immeadiately after mine in the same issue.

Mike

[Jeppe Skytte Spicker]

Hi Mike

Interesting reading. If anybody is interested, Bree 23 can be found here:

http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/way/gs21/down/bree23.pdf

Did you guys exchange pdfs after the game ended or how does that work ? Will you know the names and addresses of all 12 player (FP and DS) when game ends ?

OMG I can't wait for the next 1650 GB start-up :)

- Jeppe

[Pallando]

The feeling of mystery and suspense as oppsed to clockwork evoked in a previous post has got me thinking a bit more about this type of game.

Is there a reason why gunboat games have 2 nations per player as opposed to 1? Why not Gunboat with one nation (maybe pre selcting neutral allegeances in this case).

Howabout as I read a while back gunboat with 1 nation and 1 email allowed per 10 turns to another Nation: Turn 0, turn 10 etc... that way before you start, maybe BS would say to WK "Hey I plan on building a base in Angmar and will be helping you out etc. But the BS may change plans during next 10 turns and WK has a lot to guesstimate.

(A more mundane reason for this line of thought is that Gunboats cost a lot...)

[klub]

Gunboat format is fantastic and I agree with almost all the sentiments regarding tension, communication and strategy expressed above. Rumors, mage scrying and other information gathering methods become much more important in GB, since you have to keep an eye on events outside your own sphere of influence.

I currently play in 2 GB games and feel much more independent regarding nation plans, whereas in a regular team game focused on winning, sacrifices need to be made for the greater good. Therefore victories and defeats become much more personal since the team responsibility is reduced so much.

I still enjoy regular team games, but the time I can allocate to a few high volume email games decreases each year.

Paul ;)

[mikesankey]

Reply to Jeppe

We didn't get the names of who was in the game at the outset but did at the end. I did swap final pdfs with many of the players at the end. I still have my final DrL and Corsair pdfs so if you or anyone else reading the article in Bree want to see a copy you can e-mail me off list at mikesankey@ntlworld.com.

Cheers

Mike

[Nimdraug]

Pallando, I sympathize with your concern about the cost. Everyone has his own budget limit for ME PBM. I regularly exceed mine (if my wife were to find out, I'd be toast). But for me the enjoyment of the GB game makes it well worth the extra expense, although I recognize that exceeding the budget is not an option for everyone.

The problem with a 1-nation GB game is that the appeal would be too narrow, I think. The benefit of controlling 2 nations in GB is that it helps to compensate for the lack of diplomacy: if one of your nations gets hit hard, at least you have the second nation to fall back on.

I suggest you really try to fit a GB game into your ME PBM budget. I'd be delighted to see you in a GB game; and I think you'd feel it was money well spent.

[Nimdraug]

I went ahead and created a second thread called "Read About the Gunboat Experience" in which I encourage players to Read Sankey's and Lloyd's articles about the first GB game. I also gave a link to "News from Bree" Vol. 23.

They are fine accounts of an exciting GB game.

By the way, Sankey and Lloyd, how about signing up for the 1650 or 2959 GB games (or both!) that just began filling. I think ME Games is at about 4 or 5 signed-up for the 1650 GB and about 3 or 4 signed-up for the 2950 GB. It would be an honor to play with you two GB "pioneers."

[RKFloyd]

Geez, you guys have me wanting to sign up for a 2950 GB! I usually only see this much enthusiasm with new players. Budget is no problem but TIME is. I couldn't handle 2 turns on top of my 3 games. Heck, I can barely handle my 3 games. ::sigh::

BTW, where does the name "Gunboat" come from?

Russ

[Nimdraug]

RKFloyd, don't worry overmuch about the time factor. That is one of the attractive aspects of the GB game: the time required to play the game is about 1/5 (or sometimes more like 1/10) the time required by many standard team/ally games.

In fact, that was what originally interested me about GB games. The time commitment of standard games had become way too burdensome for me. Moreover, I felt that much of the time was not being spent "playing" the game but haggling with allies (even cooperative haggling talkes alot of time), coordinating moves with allies and responding to numerous emails.

In GB I'm able to mull over my moves, roleplay a bit (even if it's just private roleplay) and enjoy playing the game -- at MY pace and according to MY plans and wishes. If I'm rushed for time, I just do my orders and send them in. Normally, I carry my turnsheets around with me for 10 days or so and glance at them when I get 10 or 15 free minutes. Often I jot down orders and revise them 2 or 3 times before submitting -- all at my pace, with whatever time I have available.

That is truly one of the attractive features of the GB variant.

So come on, Russ! Sign up for the 2950 Gb (or the 1650 GB, if you prefer). We'd love to have you and your skull and crossbones banner on board!

Oh, by the way, I have no idea where or how the name "Gunboat" originated. Anyone else know?

[mikesankey]

I am already in another Gunboat which I started after the 1st Gunboat ended so won't join another till that one ends.

Mike

[RKFloyd]

I'm thinking about it . . . oh boy . . . my fiance' will kill me if she finds out! ;)

Russ

[Mormegil]

The games I am/was in are still running, so I am restricted to make some general comments.
I think the nation combos in GB 1650 are quite balanced, but still there are some who are more powerful than others. In this game variant, those combos which can develop game winning strategies on their own are the most powerful.
WK/BS - very strong combination, as there are no Easterlings to worry about BS can throw all his power in to support WK. With the combined mages and the WK arties, this position can build up a curses group on its own, which is very powerful. Once there are safe backup capitals, this position is very hard to beat.
DrgL/Cor – good combination of characters, economic and military power. The Dragon Lord can draw financial support and safely retreat to the south should he be removed from mirkwood. The Corsair position is almost unassailable and will quickly assimilate the prosperous Haradan pop centers.
Nol/Eot – Strongest FP combo. Eothraim military power combined with the strong Noldo characters. Noldo is one of the few nations which can search and use artefacts effectively.
The weakest nations are Rhudaur, who cannot survive turn 10, and Haradwaith, who might survive just a little longer. Players taking on these should like the challenge and be satisfied to play on with just one nation. The Dwarves/Northmen – combo is also very weak due to the lack of any good characters.
I think that the DS side is a little stronger because character strength does count more than in a normal game. The military superiority of the FP does only come to full effect when it is coordinated.
My advice for any FP nation: train strong characters, especially agents, from early on, so you can bring up a little defence when the Cloud Lord picks you as target. Building up an off-map backup capital can also buy a few turns.
I would like to see how the first GB games ended. Does somebody know how many are finished and what the results are?

[loraelin]

I must dispute Mormegil's assertion that the Dwarves/Northmen is a weak combination. I have played these two nations as a pair in several games normal games, and in the Gunboat game 95. In the latter game the D/N were the only FP positions still alive at the en of the game - and I can't claim it was merely due to my own brilliant play :-) Far from it - the combination of the positions has a number of strengths which are very useful in a GB game.

1: The Dwarves are spread out, true, but in GB this can actually be an advantage as you have a far better idea of what is going on in the world.
2: The Northmen map is very useful to the Dwarven eastern campaign
3: The Dwarven scout and recon ability is crucially important in a game where information is hard to come by.
4: Without a team to back you up financially, the Northmen's 20% market bonus is a great advantage.
5: Emissaries are vital in GB - and of course the NM name them at 40.

I don't accept the comment about a lack of good characters. Sure, neither position has an Elrond or Murazor, but the Dwarves have good commanders, and the Northmen can develop an excellent emissary squad fairly quickly. Gunboat games tend to go on much longer than normal games, so possessing super characters at the start of the game is less important.

Put simply, I believe the Dwarves/Northmen to be one of the stronger Gunboat combinations.

[Mormegil]

Well, due to the fact that there will be less coordinated efforts to kick out NM as we see in team games, his position might be a little better. But I think, along with your doubtless excellent play, the main reason for surviving this long in game 95 was the fact that the DS did not see your nations as prime targets. So, regarding the geographical situation, you are right. But by just viewing the plain character data and potential, NM and Dwarves are the second weakest FP combo, while Art & Har is the weakest.
Nol/Eot is doubtless the best. Car/Sin does also have good potential. NG/Duns and SG/Woo are both military powers combined with good agent potential.

[loraelin]

Ah, the statistics. :-)

If this game was all about statistics, then I'm not sure anyone would play it. Middle Earth is about making the best of each position, and the Gunboat variation is also about how well the two positions knit together.

My argument is that, whatever the statistics may show, the Dwarves/Northmen are peculiarly suited to each other as a combination and thus are far from being the second weakest combos - whatever the statistics may show.

On another note, I am surprised nobody has mentioned the Quiet Avenger / Fire King as an interesting GB position. I would have thought that, given the problems of co-ordination inherant in the GB game, both these positions would be strengthened by the GB scenario. What do others think?

[Jeppe Skytte Spicker]

I have not tried the GB game yet, but I definately see that Harad is pretty much dead meat. I do not see how he should make it unless SG sends his starting armies to help against the initial QA/Cors unslaugth. Anybody who has actually made it with Harad ?

The only way I see a surviving Harad on the long run IN Harad land is if the combination where changed to e.g. WM/Art and SG/Harad ?

Why is it that Cors and Harad is swopped alligence compared to standart 12vs12 grudge games ? In my experience a DS Harad is a very hard position to crack for FP if well played.

Has anybody any feeling on the distribution of won GB games FP vs. DS ? Or does Harlequin holds a list ?

- Jeppe

PS. Nimdraug, Nick F and Celebion; Thanks for your comments and anwsers :)

PPS. To Mikesankey. No thanks, but thanks for the offer :) My question was only based on the thought that I myself would be interested in seeing what other nations where doing after end game. How hard pressed where my enemies, did somebody help them, where were other nations focus and what was going on in other regions etc.

[Jeppe Skytte Spicker]

To loraelin.

I think the combination "now a days" :) is DogL/QA and CL/FK. That is at least the combinations I to my memory were giving by Harlequin ?

- Jeppe

[Mormegil]

To Colin

You are right that this game is not about statistics and one of the greatest challenges is to manage a nation despite of any obvious bad odds. But if we are to determine a ranking of combos, we have to start somewhere. If you don't agree with my ranking, what would be yours?

DS combos

Rhu/Dlt. is clearly the weakest, but Dlts. imho are strong enough to be played on alone and you are guaranteed to have an "interesting" game start...
I don't think that there are any bad DS combos. Apart from the top rankers WK/BS and DrgL/Cor, all others are very interesting combinations of military and agent powers which I would rank equal, with slight advantages for QA/DgL because of the economic strength and secure position of QA.

[loraelin]

It's so difficult to comment on any number of GB issues whilst one is actually playing in a game. I've got a number of thoughts on the actual balance of the GB game - but these will have to wait for a while :-)

Colin

[Nimdraug]

Klub (aka Paul) wrote in an earlier post:

Gunboat format is fantastic and I agree with almost all the sentiments regarding tension, communication and strategy expressed above. Rumors, mage scrying and other information gathering methods become much more important in GB, since you have to keep an eye on events outside your own sphere of influence.

I must say, I agree entirely with your observations. Many team/ally games obviate the need for the more subtle forms of information-gathering. Why waste precious orders when you have access each turn to the turnsheest of your 10 or 11 or 12 teammates? Also, why waste time analyzing fragments and scraps of information when you can get wholesale amounts of information from your team? In this respect, GB reflects more accurately the original design intent of ME PBM, in my view.

Paul, I'd love to meet up with you in a GB game soon.

[Gildring]

I wanted to give a vote of confidence for the GB 2950 scenerio. Of course I can't and won't mention what game I'm in, but I've been reading this thread and find the banter interesting.

I also love the team-play of other games, but since this is my first GB, I must say it is refreshing to sniff the "fog of war" once again.

The fact that you can't know something unless you commit orders to finding it out (spells, palantiri, recon's, etc), makes for unique and thrilling play.

Good gaming to you all!

Nick

[starkhorn]

Originally posted by loraelin
It's so difficult to comment on any number of GB issues whilst one is actually playing in a game. I've got a number of thoughts on the actual balance of the GB game - but these will have to wait for a while :-)

Colin

Yeah I'm in the exact same situation as you Colin........

[Player]

Originally posted by Nimdraug

Paul, I'd love to meet up with you in a GB game soon.

Isn't there a basic contradiction here...? :)

[Nimdraug]

Player, you're right there is a basic contradiction in what I said. Allow me to clarify: Paul, I'd love to beat you like a drum on the field of battle in the next GB game! :D

Now for you Player: have sent in a set-up fotr the next GB game? My understanding is that there are two GB games filling right now -- a 1650 and a 2950. How about it?

[Nimdraug]

Gildring (aka Nick) wrote:

I wanted to give a vote of confidence for the GB 2950 scenerio. Of course I can't and won't mention what game I'm in, but I've been reading this thread and find the banter interesting.

Gildring, I've never played a 2950 GB game and am aching to see the next one filled and started. Can you tell us anything more about the 2950 GB without compromising any GB prohibitions against communication with the other players? What is it like? How does it differ from the 1650 GB?

If you feel that you can't discuss it without violating the no-communication rule, I'll understand, of course.

Does anyone else have a 2950 GB experience to share with us?

[klub]

Nimdraug's Contradiction:

I gotcha the first time, let me finish up some of my current games before I get involved in another.

;-)

Paul

[Nick F]

Hey, all you Gunboat game fans!

Clint told me in an email yesterday that not many players have actually sent in sign-ups for either the 1650 GB or the 2950 GB games. He said alot have said they are interested or would like to join a GB game in the "future;" but not many actual sign-ups. :(

So if any of you guys want to get a GB game filled, you have to send an email to Clint and "officially" sign up for a GB game -- that means providing your account number and nation duo preferences, etc. in the message.

Let's get goin' and get another GB game started!

[kba]

hi,
Nice thread. I'm currently in a GB game nearing turn 30 and it looks like it could last for at least 20 turns more. I think GB is a great refreshing scenario created for ME fans, primary because of the time factor. The primary problem with the ordinary team game (especially grudge games)is that you MUST have a whole lot of time available to really enjoy the game. Because the team aspect of the game means that a great deal of information is continously flooding forth and back all players every turn. If you cant handle that kind of informationflow, you will not really be part of the game and probably just be obeying orders.
In GB this factor has been removed. You are not dependent on available time anymore. A GB turn can be made in less than two hours every two weeks (and if you dont have this small amount available, then you are seriously in the wrong business). This is a great advantage compared with spending several hours every day on communication in a single grudge game.

My experience with this type of game is that you NEED to think long term right from the beginning. Each GB game will VERY likely last long past turn 30, and at that stage of the game character war will be the decisive factor. Another experience is that you can lay the basic starting strategies on the shelf. The start is completely unpredicting and you need to focus on the long term surviving of your two nations. In my game one of my nations has fx been attacked by as many as 7 different enemies, which were quite surprising.
Anyway as I, like so many others, dont have the time I used to have available, GB will more and more be my favorite scenario.

[Mormegil]

Kim is very right about the team game aspect of informationflow. That is why I never will play more than one team game at a time. The total absence of informationflow in GB OTOH can be very frustrating. I recently dropped a GB position where I was fighting a loosing battle for many, many turns. If nobody helps you, you can hardly hope to turn the tide once you are on the loosing street. This is why I pledge for a limited communication in GB games, like 100 words to all allies every five turns. This will avoid the information overkill as well as the total isolation. Due to my late experiences, I would rather not join another normal GB game but limited communication would interest me greatly. We have discussed this some time ago and it seemed as if such a game would be set up soon, but now it looks like it is completely forgotten.

[Clint]

We have discussed this some time ago and it seemed as if such a game would be set up soon, but now it looks like it is completely forgotten.

Nope - it got created. At present most players don't actually send diplos though... :-) After that we did a normal GB game and a 2950 GB game. As per usual if there's a player base for it we'll support it.

Clint

[starkhorn]

I suspect that the reason for lack of diplos every 5 turns is because its really easy to forget which turn is your turn to communicate.

Some sort of reminder system might be an idea Clint ?

[benmin18]

I played in the recently completed 2950 Gunboat and am currently playing the in ongoing 2950 Gunboat. I ran the Dog Lord/Long Rider the first game and had a good time with it. At some point I'll write an article about what I did and why I made certain moves.

But I will give three pieces of advice for all Gunboat players:
1. Manage your economy wisely. I almost bankrupted myself because I didn't pay attention.
2. Pick one nation to do the fighting, the second nation to provide support. It's hard to run a pair of military powers that can sustain themselves.
3. Come out swinging. Conservative play gets squashed.

- Ben
Dog Lord/Long Rider - Gunboat 237
Currently in Gunboat 229

PS - Fortune to my allies, death to my enemies.

[Clint]

Some sort of reminder system might be an idea Clint ?

We don't want to do that. Isn't it upto the player if they want to communicate or not and isn't that the point of GB to get away from the pressure to do so? If the player can't recall that it's his turn (having just received an email the turn before) then us reminding them isn't really going to motivate them.

It also adds to your work-load - not a lot but each 10+ minutes per game (which it would take) takes up 2 hours of our work per day - 10 hours per week and it all adds up.

Clint

[Gildring]

I don't know what you guys mean by "diplo"s. Is that a message to another player sent through Harly in a GB game? I thought all communication between players was forbidden? Thanks if you can clarify this point for me. I'll also look on my set-up to reread the guidelines.

Ben, good to see there are some other quality players in 229.

Nimdraug, or white wolf (I like the name), GB 2950 is very much like the 2950 scenerio without the massive communication and coordination amongst team members.

I like 2950 because it is leaner, meaner, and less predictable than 1650. Dol Guldur can be a real challenge for the Free in 2950 due to the low number of troops each nation's economy can afford. In 1650, Dol Guldur is little more than a speed bump for the Dwarves and other Free.

Also, due to the low number of troops, one has to get creative: spells, artifacts, and NPC's all play a bigger role.

I am REALLY looking forward to continuing my GB 2950 because of the "fog of war" aspect; it adds some 'reality' to the game. How realistic is it for someone in Mithlond-west to know about what is happening in Lug Ghurzun, far across Middle-earth?

If you have any other questions, shoot them my way. But if you know 2950 in general, then getting GB 2950 isn't much of a stretch.

cheers,

Nick

[Nimdraug]

Gildring,

Thanks for the response about the 2950 GB game. I agree with your "leaner and meaner" comment about the 2950 scenario. At times, the 1650 game seems cluttered and a bit stale. Conceptually, it's still a great scenario but it needs some new life. The GB variant of 1650 strips away much of the clutter, in my opinion, and makes the game come alive again. How much more alive, then, must a 2950 GB game then be!

I also agree about the "fog of war" aspect of the GB games -- whether 2950 or 1650. Without some of that "fog" (which can at times be very frustrating and annoying), the game not only loses some sense of "reality," as you put it, but it also loses much of its charm, I think.

As for the "diplos," I'm not sure how they are forwarded; but in GB games they are used only for the limited-diplomacy option GB games. The regular GB games do not allow any diplomacy whatsoever and thus no "diplos." Personally, I prefer the no-diplomacy GB games; but I must admit I've never tried a limited-diplomacy GB game so I can't speak on the subject with any authority.

Oh, and you are correct, Gildring. I am Nimdraug, the "White Wolf." Fear me most at dawn, when the mist is thick . . . and white.

[Nimdraug]

Benmin18,

Thanks for your GB strategy tips.

Your point #1 ("manage your economy wisely") is true of 2950 in general and not just GB 2950. Wouldn't you agree? Or is there something different about 2950 GB that puts the fragile 2950 economies at greater risk?

Your point #2 is well-taken. I think even in 1650 GB it's a good idea to have one of your nations in more of a support role and the other fight like crazy. That's not always possible to pull off, however. The Arthedain/Harad duo comes to mind in the 1650 GB game as an example of two front-line nations being paired.

Your point #3 is interesting. "Conservative play gets squashed," you said. KBA makes a similar point in an earlier post. He said:

Another experience is that you can lay the basic starting strategies on the shelf. The start is completely unpredicting and you need to focus on the long term surviving of your two nations. In my game one of my nations has fx been attacked by as many as 7 different enemies, which were quite surprising.

Yet he draws the conclusion that because the GB game is so unpredictable, you need to be a bit more cautious and look to your nations' survivablility. I wonder which conclusion is the correct one to draw from the GB experience.

[Player]

Originally posted by Nimdraug
Your point #1 ("manage your economy wisely") is true of 2950 in general and not just GB 2950. Wouldn't you agree? Or is there something different about 2950 GB that puts the fragile 2950 economies at greater risk?

Er...you don't have 8 other allies to beg gold from.

[Woody]

One of the difficulties you may be finding in getting your next GB off the ground is there are least 5 GB games going on at present, may be more.

I guess a large part of the player pool are already involved and due to the nature of the GB game it tends to be more lengthy then usual.

Nice to read this stuff though, its great to be able to get on and play the game as you want, but I'm dying with curiosity to find out what has been happening in the games I'm involved in. Did one of my "allies" really let me run head long into that wall then pick up all my arties and take the PC himself. If he meant it I sneakingly half admire him for it.

Brad - if your ever bored of winning with your beloved Rhudaur you should try them in a GB game, now there would be a challenge for you.

[benmin18]

Originally posted by Nimdraug
Benmin18,

Thanks for your GB strategy tips.

Your point #1 ("manage your economy wisely") is true of 2950 in general and not just GB 2950. Wouldn't you agree? Or is there something different about 2950 GB that puts the fragile 2950 economies at greater risk?

Your point #2 is well-taken. I think even in 1650 GB it's a good idea to have one of your nations in more of a support role and the other fight like crazy. That's not always possible to pull off, however. The Arthedain/Harad duo comes to mind in the 1650 GB game as an example of two front-line nations being paired.

Your point #3 is interesting. "Conservative play gets squashed," you said. KBA makes a similar point in an earlier post. He said:



Yet he draws the conclusion that because the GB game is so unpredictable, you need to be a bit more cautious and look to your nations' survivablility. I wonder which conclusion is the correct one to draw from the GB experience.

Brad summed it up quite nicely. Economy planning is vital since you do not have your teammates to rely on for support, short of a surprise gift of gold/product. In 2950 it's obviously more important to develop your nations' economies for the mid-game so you can support larger armies and those expensive characters.

I've only played one 1650 game, and it was fun, but I like 2950 because it is more open-ended. Depending on the nation combo, you can have both nations fighting. As the Dog/LR, I was able to use both nations' armies to fight before I had the Dog Lord take over because that nation's armies ended up capturing more enemy pop centers.

As for the 3rd point, the best defense is a good offense. For both sides it's VERY important to play aggressively to the strengths of the nations given and try to bear the brunt of whatever your enemies throw at you. Granted some nations are bound to get beat on, North Gondor, for instance, but remember that your enemies are uncoordinated and joint attacks are quite rare. I could go into my strategy for the Dog Lord/Long Rider, but I don't want to ruin it for whoever is playing that combo in 229 right now.

[Player]

Originally posted by Woody
Brad - if your ever bored of winning with your beloved Rhudaur you should try them in a GB game, now there would be a challenge for you.

Well, I've won them as both DS and FP, so I'm not so sure. Especially, as GB is generally different from the "standard" and predictable play of 12x12 - where Rhudaur get's trounced, why shouldn't Rhuduar "generally" Rule in GB? Besides...according to the Rules, you don't know if I already am... ;)

[Zalendar]

I would love to play a Gunboat game. When I first heard about it (just after the first ones started) the whole concept appealed to me. The more I read about it the more inrested I have in the game.

Unfortunatly, I'm running two nations right now and that is all I can afford :(

Hope you get another game going soon.

[Jeppe Skytte Spicker]

I have signed up for the next GB 1650, but I guess you have to email Clint and ask to be certain ?

- Jeppe

[Nimdraug]

Celebion,

I am definitely signed up for the next 2950 GB game. In fact, I've advised Clint that I wish to be considered for a position in any GB game that starts to accept sign-ups.

As I understand the GB situation in regard to new games at this time, ME Games has received sign-ups from players for both 2950 and 1650 GB games but that it's only a handful in each case.

That's the only downside to GB games, in my opinion -- namely, that they take a long time to fill. The reasons for that are, I think, as follows.
1) GB is still not as popular as regular team games.
2) GB games tend to last longer than regular team games.

Here's an idea for you to kick around. If you can gather 8 players, you could perhaps convince Clint to offer a GB game in which each player controls three nations. I know Clint is not fond of the GB "triple" option (as opposed to GB duo nations); but if 8 players gathered and requested it (with perhaps 1 backup player in case of a drop), I don't see why ME Games would not fulfill the request.

[benmin18]

A triple GB game for 1650 was done, don't know if it's still going on. The nation groupings needed to be redone from what I could gather.

Also, 229 ran today. Hope my allies had good turns and bad luck fell upon my opponents.

[Nimdraug]

Yes, Clint told me that ME Games ran a "triple-nation" GB game but that he was disappointed with the results. He said missed turns caused many problems and also drops were a problem in that game. And I'm also unsure whether that game is still running or not.

But if 8 dedicated GB players got together (with perhaps 1 backup in case of a drop), I don't see how that would be different from two 4-player grudge teams arranging a game.

Obviously, there are some very interested GB players -- but not enough to fill new games quickly. Convincing 8 other GB fans to join a "triple-nation" game might help to get a game filled faster and it would have the added bonus of giving each player the rather unique experience of controlling three nations in one game. To me, that sounds like alot of fun!

[Player]

Expensive fun. One of the problems...

[benmin18]

One more tip for all GB players:

Upgrade BOTH nations AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and get your two nations' characters in companies. This is ESPECIALLY important for offensive agent/emmie squads, and if you're nations are close enough together to have armies that work together, it helps as well.

- Ben

[Fletch]

I played in the "triple nation" GB game. I thought it was alot of fun but I think the nation pairings could have been a little better in hindsight. I got eliminated fairly quickly due to economic reasons (I dont know if this game is still on going, so I wont say much about it) but it wasnt too bad for a first run. I'd be willing to try it again if it were revamped a little.

[klub]

Fletch do you happen to have the list of nation combinations for the triple nation Gunboat game please?

I would like to take a look and see if we can get a bit of banter going on their respective merits. It may go on my ME ‘to-do list’, though I would have to free up some cash and time.

:)

Paul

[quantrill37]

I would be interested in a three nation gunboat, of course I would have to wait till one or two games I'm currently in to end.

[Fletch]

I dont have the list exactly, but I believe this is how it broke down;

Witch King, Dragon Lord and Rhudaur
FireKing, Ice King, Cloud Lord
Dog Lord, Dark Lt's, LR
BS, Harad and Qa

Free were

Arthi, Cardi Duns
NG,SG, Corsairs
Sinda, Woodmen, Noldo
Dwarves, Northmen, Eothraim

I am not entirely sure on these the last few FP, they may not be correct, but essentially everything was broken down geographically. I think thats a pretty good way to go, but of course it leads to a few problems in that once your area is secure, there isnt much for you to do.

Also, in the case of the NW DS, I can see them bankrupting out easily if you consider the amount of armies that the WK had to maintain, the constant ravaging of Rhud and of course the Dragon Lord is in a world of pain all his own.

[Clint]

If we ever did a 3ntn GB game again it would have different triplets of nations. As Fletch says once an area is sown up it's all over and boring. I think it's a much better game when you have different areas and strengths of nations in which to play - and that's what the original person who designed the game, Chris Courtiour, wanted. Also if a player drops then the entire area becomes a walkover for the opposition and despite attempting to make sure that players

Suggestions welcome as to the format you'd like with this proviso in mind.

eg
FP
3,7,23
1,4,22
2,8,10
5,6,9

DS
12,13,18
11,14,17
15,16,19
20,21,24

I am pretty likely to try and set up a 2 or 3 ntn 1650 GB game within a couple of weeks - but not a 2950 game - there's basically no one prepared to sign up to the 2950 that won't do 1650 and I have other players interested in 1650. If you are interested in a 3 ntn game then get in touch asap. Some discussion on viable nation combinations would be useful as well.

If someone were to write up an article for Bree about GB that would certainly help get players into the game - and you get a free turn out of it!

Clint

[starkhorn]

They looks good combo's Clint.

My initial reaction would be the 2,8,10 combo as it might make these 3 pairings perhaps too strong economically with the NM 40emi abililty and the starting Noldo emi's. Later in the game those emi's would possibly win the game.

Perhaps 3, 10, 23 and 2,7,8 would share out the emi power of the freep nations whilst still retaining some sort of geographical isolation between the pairings ?

[Nimdraug]

Clint's message is truly wonderful news for Gunboat fans!

Personally, I'd prefer the 3-nation GB game, simply because I am lusting to control three nations in one game.

As for 1650 vs. 2950, I would prefer a 2950 GB game; but if the demand is weak for 2950 GB, as Clint indicates, then I'll gladly sign-up for 1650 GB.

Celebion, I know you had hoped that a 2950 GB game would start to fill; but would you consider a 1650 GB game? If the game turns out to be a 3-nation GB game, I think it will be an absolute blast!

I have some thoughts on the nation triplets in a 3-nation GB game; but I'll save those for later. I'll simply say now that I agree entirely with Clint: the nation triplets should be as dispersed as possible -- both in terms of location and in terms of national character (ie., mage vs. military, agent vs. economic, etc.).

[SMoyes]

As for the 3 nation 1650 gunboat game, it's still going on and I'm loving it.

Scott

[klub]

Overall the Free People 3 nation combinations look very good, keeping good regional separation and a mixture of strengths and weaknesses. Looking at each combination in more detail:

Clint’s FP Combination 1:
3 - Eothraim, 7 - S Gondor, 23 - Dunland
Very nice combination, character potential with military mix, no proposed changes.

Clint’s FP Combination 2:
1 - Woodmen, 4 - Arthedain, 22 - Harad
This combination has very weak characters and Harad & Woodmen are likely to take a beating at game start. One stronger nation should probably be added.

Clint’s FP Combination 3
2 - Northmen, 8 - Dwarves, 10 - Noldo
As has been by Starkhorn, Dwarves and Noldo are in very strong game start positions and Northmen has potential, a powerful set of characters, with strong safe nations.

Clint’s FP Combination 4
5 - Cardolan, 6 - N Gondor, 9 - Sinda
A combination I would like to play, good characters and up front military action.


So without too much fuss we could either put either the Dwarves or Noldo from combo 3 into combo 2, I would prefer Dwarves to replace Woodmen or Noldo to replace Arthedain, to keep regional separation. Therefore combinations 2 & 3 could change as follows:

Mod 1, FP Combination 2:
4 - Arthedain, 8 - Dwarves, 22 - Harad
No outstanding nations, but solid performances economically and militarily, perhaps a little weak on characters but an improvement and contributing to a overall good combination.

Mod 1, FP Combination 3:
1 - Woodmen, 2 - Northmen, 10 - Noldo
The weaker Woodmen and Northmen are boosted by the superlative Noldo, a very nice combination for players who may tend to the character game.

OR:

Mod 2, FP Combination 2:
1 - Woodmen, 10 - Noldo, 22 - Harad
Again the Noldo provides an envious character set, making up for the deficiencies of the others

Mod 2, FP Combination 3:
2 - Northmen, 8 - Dwarves, 4 - Arthedain
No great weaknesses or strengths, but has potential to be a strong combination.


The DS combinations are probably more difficult to put together and ask a difficult question which will likely spilt the players depending on whether you think agents are already too powerful. Should the Cloud Lord be paired with the QA who can Double Scout? personally I do not think so.

I also believe that since Rhudaur will be lucky to make it to turn 10, he should be paired with the most fun DS nation, the aforementioned Cloud lord.

Below are Clint’s proposed combinations, I am afraid I don’t have time to write on their merits or proposed modifications today :D

Clint’s DS Combination 1:
12 – Dragon Lord, 13 – Dog Lord, 18 – Fire King

Clint’s DS Combination 2:
11 – Witch King, 14 – Cloud Lord, 17 – Quiet Avenger

Clint’s DS Combination 3:
15 – Blind Sorcerer, 16 – Ice King, 19 – Long Rider

Clint’s DS Combination 4:
20 – Dark Lieut, 21 - Corsairs, 24 – Rhudaur

Paul

[starkhorn]

Klub,

Personally I think the Woodmen and Noldo should be kept seperate at all costs. The reason is that both nations get stealth bonus and the Woodmen get double scouting bonus making these two agent super-powers.

I think the Noldo and Woodmen agent potential should be shared out more so that Noldo, Woodmen and Sinda are in all serperate combo's. Perhaps also the duns in a seperate from the above 3 as well thus giving each combo the chance of decent agents but keeping them seperate.

[klub]

I get your point about the Double Scout of the Woodmen agents, however I do not think stealth makes Noldo agents powerful, but their potential to locate powerful agent artefacts.

I would guess a nation with the Stealth SNA gets about 20-25% of new characters with stealth, the Woodmen 10-12%% of new characters with stealth and 10-12% with a Challenge Bonus.

Would the Noldo-Woodmen pairing have more powerful agents than any of the following DS combinations?

12 – Dragon Lord (stealth+double scouting), 13 – Dog Lord (stealth), 18 – Fire King

11 – Witch King, 14 – Cloud Lord (+20 ass/kid+stealth+40 agents), 17 – Quiet Avenger (double scouting)

15 – Blind Sorcerer, 16 – Ice King (stealth+40 agents), 19 – Long Rider (3 tasty agent artefacts)

Paul

[starkhorn]

Actually I didn't look at the DS combos as I rarely play DS nations.

However, I certainly think CL and QA together is too strong. CL is strong enough on his own without getting a nation with double scouting bonus.

As you already said, the DS combos are more difficult to effectively share out the agents,stealth and geographically location due to some many being in Mordor and the DS having lots of agent/stealth nations.

[Jeppe Skytte Spicker]

Celebion;

Any numbers on the likelyhood to get stealth for each seperate nation ?

- Jeppe

[Player]

Originally posted by starkhorn
I certainly think CL and QA together is too strong. CL is strong enough on his own without getting a nation with double scouting bonus.

Without communcation and cooperation between allies, I won't disagree that the Cloud Lord would be a strong and fun nation to play regardless...but exactly what is the point of a Double Scout nation then...? I can see the Dragon Lord using the SNA and developing an agent cadre or being crafty in his challenging on hidden pops...but the QA? Emissary and potential military/naval nation, depending on your whim..with Double Scout but no allies to send your odd useful agent off to go help. It would be quite a while before Adunaphel had any use for this skill.

[starkhorn]

Well yeah QA on it's own can't use scout bonus well for agent actions, I agree but isn't that part of the reason why Chris Courtier insisted that players must play 2 nations minimum in Gunboat ?

By insisting upon that point it means that one nation is never actually alone without allies because each player must play 2 nations minimum, so the QA has at least 1 ally.

I think QA is normally paired with DogLord and DogLord characters can have stealth so the bonus scouting can potentialy comes in useful then for agent actions.

My originally point was for the 3 nation combos was simply that new CL characters can have a good chance of killing straight away and that giving them a nation with double scouting could make that combo too strong in the character war....similiar on the freep side that Noldo and Woodmen combined could make them too strong.

Personally I would prefer that all of the emi/agent/army/mage etc abilities of each side are shared out evenly in 3 nation combo so that no one combo has a vastly superior advantage in one area.

And yes I fully agree that it's extremely difficult to find combos to achieve this balance.

[Nimdraug]

Stackhorn wrote:

Personally I would prefer that all of the emi/agent/army/mage etc abilities of each side are shared out evenly in 3 nation combo so that no one combo has a vastly superior advantage in one area.

I agree that it would be important to a triple-nation GB game to split up the various national skills and abilities. That seems to me to be one of the basic ideas behind GB, namely, to introduce freshness into the game by getting away from the transnational super-agent companies, the unstoppable curse squads and, in general, the hyper-coordinated assaults. The ways in which that is accomplished in GB is by disallowing diplomacy and by offering a good mix of nation duos or triples.

Mixing national abilities along with geographic dispersal is a difficult feat to accomplish -- especially for the DS side -- and, in my opinion, can't be accomplished perfectly. But the more mixed, the better. It makes the GB gaming experience just that much more exhilarating and intense!

[benmin18]

Yay! GB 229 ran again today! Death to my enemies! I hope my allies did well. Hip hip, HOORAY!

- Ben
GB 229

[Clint]

I'm going with a 2 nation 1650 game at present - seems the most popular choice. We have 7 players so far so need 5 more.

I won't be doing a 2950 GB game until the latest one finishes. It's clear to me that the player base can only support one such game at a time and make the game competitive. (Same as 1 1650 1wk game).

Clint

[Nimdraug]

Celebion, thanks for spreading the word about Gunboat. In my opinion, alot of veteran players would be interested in GB and would really enjoy it. But my experience is similar to your's -- not alot of them are aware of it or understand why they might want to give it a try.

ME Games is actively seeking articles about GB for publication in 'News from Bree.' I'm trying to put one together amidst all the other demands on my time.

Ny the way, Celebion, Clint has a dropped position available in the current 2950 GB game. You may want to drop him a message and ask about it. If it's a solid position, you may want to give it a shot.

[benmin18]

GB 229 ran again today! Hooray! Bad luck to my opponents, good luck to my allies!

- Ben
GB 229

[Clint]

Strangely enough we do have another game starting up - game 8.

I am thinking of adding the extra rule to this one that if a nation is eliminated and the other nation dropped I'll offer that alive nation to anyone in the team to pick up. They won't get the dead nation's information.

Thoughts on that?

Clint

[benmin18]

Well, one rule that needs to be added for sure is that dead nations SHOULD NOT be revealed.

I have no problems with dropped nations being taken up by teammates.

- Ben

[Nimdraug]

I concur. Dropped nations should definitely be offered to current players for picking up.

If, however, both nations in a dropped duo are surviving, then I think the surviving nations should be split amongst current players. That way no one player ends up with 4 nations at his command while all the rest have only 2.

I also agree with Benmin18 that dead nations should not be announced or otherwise revealed. Part of the charm and excitement of Gunboat is the LACK of knowledge of what is going on. The slow and painstaking process of piecing together little bits of information to get a bigger picture of what is happening in Middle-earth is intriguing and engaging. And from time to time, when your information gathering labors pay off with a military victory or successful character action, that payoff feels all the more grand and rewarding. In short, it's part of the fun of Gunboat. Revealing the identity of a dead nation detracts from that, in my opinion.

[Clint]

Some games have the dead nations announced - others not.

I think that this is very much a personal choice thing - some players like it and some don't.

Clint

[Nimdraug]

Well, Clint, I can't disagree with that. Personal choice is what the variant games are all about! It's not a "make or break" issue for me whether dead nations are announced. I happen to prefer that they not be announced. Others, I'm certain, have the opposite view. I would play Gunboat under either policy; but think the variant is strengthened slightly by not announcing them.

And may I say on a more general note, it is my opinion that the variants add tremendous value to ME PBM. And that becomes all the more true in light of the fact that GSI will not authorize programming changes to the game (at least to this date). The variants are thus the only way for ME Games to be innovative. If not for the variants, ME PBM would be quite diminished.

[Nimdraug]

One more item: Gunboat must be gaining in popularity. Gunboat 1650 game 6 just began a week or so ago and now Gunboat 1650 game 8 is filling up!

Perhaps it's time to consider offering a 2959 Gunboat game.

[benmin18]

Seriously Clint, consider this: If Gunboat is meant for players to TRULY use all the resources at their disposal, then WHY tell players that nations are dead? Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose? Gunboat is specifically meant to enhance the fog of war. Well, the fog of war is certainly cleared a bit if I know who is dead and alive on my opposition.

- Ben
Avid 2950 Gunboat Enthusiast

[Clint]

Perhaps it's time to consider offering a 2959 Gunboat game.

I don't think so I couldn't get players to take the drop out(s) in the earlier 2950 game and have hardly anyone interested. I know you're keen but I think this is flogging a dead horse - we can keep one horse alive but not multiple.. :-)

As per usual 1650 is much more popular thatn 2950 or 1000 and that is represented in the number of variant games of each that I can offer.

Well, one rule that needs to be added for sure is that dead nations SHOULD NOT be revealed.

Not sure - I need more feedback before I can decide. It's certainly less work for us to not give that information out... ;-)

Clint

[benmin18]

Originally posted by Clint
Not sure - I need more feedback before I can decide. It's certainly less work for us to not give that information out... ;-)
Clint

Clint,

Now that's pointless... of course we want to make more work for you. :)

The other thing that revealing dead nations does is immediately turn the whole game into a vultures' feast as players from both sides will immediately try to grab pop centers, artifacts, and recruit/kill characters. Dead nations shouldn't be announced so the partner nation has a chance to have first crack at salvaging everything as best as they can.

It's all about fog of war, and announcing dead nations kills it.

- Ben

[Nimdraug]

Celebion, there is no need to play 2950 Gunboat as a three-nation game. Perhaps that isn't what you meant; perhaps you intended only to convey the idea that it is preferable to play 2950 as a three-nation game. But clearly 2950 Gunboat CAN be played as a two-nation game.

Clint mentioned that he had trouble finding replacements for a dropped position in an earlier 2950 GB game. My view on dropped GB positions is that if no replacement can be found within a reasonable time-frame, then the nations should be split among current players. Sure that would give some players an advantage; but I wouldn't care about that. I'm intertested only in exciting, balanced game play -- not victory.

In fact, I think in ALL games dropped positions should be offered to current players if no replacement can be found.

In the case of Gunboat drops, perhaps the dropped nations (assuming nation duos) could be split among the two players who are most struggling (with "most struggling" to be determined by Clint). And in my opinion, a reasonable time-frame before offering dropped nations to current players would be one missed turn following the drop. In two-week games, that would give at least a few weeks to locate a replacement before turning to curent players.

[benmin18]

Originally posted by Celebion
Not sure I would play in game in which the defeated nations are not released for several reasons.

Everyone does not have the same maps; some are more favorable than others.

Some nation pairs start with low level mages which hamper their ability to learn things via the arcane route.

Assuming some sort of quasi-realism, I think it’s safe to assume the trade caravans would have some knowledge of happenings in other parts of the map.


This is the appeal of Gunboat, for you to develop your nation so you CAN gather info. Yeah, not everyone starts with mages, but hey, those are the breaks. You make do with what you've got, and I like that. It's more challenging.

And that is the main reason for Gunboat, as a more challenging alternative.

- Ben

[benmin18]

Gunboat 229 ran yesterday!

Hooray to my allies! Death to my enemies!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Gildring]

Since I am asking on a public board and not trying to gain any advantage, would it be within the rules to ask Ben if he is FP or DS in 229?

Unless you are sure, don't tell me. One of the things inherently lost in a Gunboat game is the trash talk, but I'll gladly live with that. Gunboat more than compensates with the multi-nation, fog of war aspect.

Nick
Gunboat

[benmin18]

I'm not allowed to say which side I'm on.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Nimdraug]

Gildring, you have hit on an interesting aspect of the Gunboat game. Because there is no diplomacy in GB, there can also be no trash-talking or other entertaining posts. GB is inherently quiet; and that means that alot of players who I think would really enjoy GB don't ever hear about it.

But you are certainly correct: the multi-nation gaming and fog-of-war of GB more than compensates for the inability to brag about one's successes or taunt one's opponents on this forum.

[benmin18]

I rule! I'm winning! Everyone else sucks!!!

How about that?

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[gingerprince]

Originally posted by Nimdraug
Because there is no diplomacy in GB, there can also be no trash-talking or other entertaining posts.


Not so. It simply frees trash-talking from the often uncomfortable bonds of reality.

Allow me to demonstrate...

Ben, your armies are so weak that even the peasants of <Gunboat censored> laugh at you. Your men/orcs/trolls/elves/dwarves (delete as applicable) flee like the craven dogs they are before my armies. Soon all the lands from the desert to the frozen tundra will be under the control of <Gunboat censored> My mighty agents <Gunboat censored> and <Gunboat censored> kill with impunity. You have no hope of victory, surrender now. Ha ha ha...

A little vague admittedly, but it's the thought that counts.

Paul

[benmin18]

Originally posted by gingerprince
Not so. It simply frees trash-talking from the often uncomfortable bonds of reality.

Allow me to demonstrate...

Ben, your armies are so weak that even the peasants of <Gunboat censored> laugh at you. Your men/orcs/trolls/elves/dwarves (delete as applicable) flee like the craven dogs they are before my armies. Soon all the lands from the desert to the frozen tundra will be under the control of <Gunboat censored> My mighty agents <Gunboat censored> and <Gunboat censored> kill with impunity. You have no hope of victory, surrender now. Ha ha ha...

A little vague admittedly, but it's the thought that counts.

Paul

Oh yeah?!?!?!

Well, you dress like woman and play with elves! And your mom smells like a troll! My agents have already killed (insert names here) and I've taken (insert population centers here) and lost only (insert population centers here). I armies will ravage the entire (insert Middle Earth Region here) on my way to (insert destination here). So take that!

Elves suck. Nazgul suck. I rule.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[gingerprince]

Originally posted by benmin18
Oh yeah?!?!?!

My agents have already killed (insert names here) and I've taken (insert population centers here) and lost only (insert population centers here). I armies will ravage the entire (insert Middle Earth Region here) on my way to (insert destination here). So take that!


Ha. You're delusional. (insert names here) were only pawns in my cunning strategy - their deaths will be avenged doubly.

You will find the road to (insert destination here) awash with the blood of many of your orc/troll/man/dwarf/elf-folk.

Nazguls and elves may or may not suck, depending on how I am aligned.

[Clint]

The other thing that revealing dead nations does is immediately turn the whole game into a vultures' feast as players from both sides will immediately try to grab pop centers, artifacts, and recruit/kill characters. Dead nations shouldn't be announced so the partner nation has a chance to have first crack at salvaging everything as best as they can.

Generally the player who has the "lost" nation has a turn or even two advantage over others. A quick look at the games that have run to completion and I think that lots of players don't look into this aspect of the game in any detail so I don't think it's a problem for most.

Thanks
Clint

[Arthedain73]

Clint: I am confused. Does Harley announce the collapse of a Gunboat nation or not? That is what the emissary order 585 does. Don't see why Harley would be involved at all.

[Nimdraug]

Another reason I love Gunboat: no Neutrals to throw the game out of balance. Just check out the thread about game 95. There are some mighty annoyed and frustrated players because the Neutrals threw the game way out of balance. I too have had too many bad experiences with extremely out-of-balance games (both 1650 and 2950) and became frustrated with all of ME PBM for quite awhile.

GB by its nature, however, tends to encourage game balancing -- and by extension more excitinga nd intense game-play. The reasons for this are numerous. But here are a few. (1) No Neutrals. The Neutrals are evenly divided between DS and Free. (2) No diplomacy. It is not possible to have one side hyper-organized and the other side not, as occurs too often, in my opinion, in regular team games. (3) The GB fog-of-war tends to give nations that are hurting a chance to regenerate while those that are thriving are unable to exploit their superior position as fully as they can in regular games.

[benmin18]

Elves and Nazgul still suck. I rule!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Nimdraug]

Well, my sources inform me that another Gunboat game has been launched. This is a 1650 version GB game 10, I believe.

Congratulations to you game 10 GB players! Good gaming to you all!

I wonder how many active GB games there are as of this date and how many have been completed. Any guesses?

[benmin18]

MORE DEATH TO MY ENEMIES IN GB 229! I haven't said anything in a while about this.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[benmin18]

Come'on, someone else get excited that our Gunboat 229 runs tomorrow! I'm losing! I'm winning! Someone! SOMETHING! ANYTHING!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Gildring]

It's hard to talk trash when everything must be so secretive. But I suppose I am allowed to say to my enemies, I'm going to TRASH you all this turn...

Nick, 229

[SMoyes]

I guess you could call me a GB devotee.

Scott
GB - 74
GB - 92
GB - 136

[klub]

To my enemies, take this chance to flee or suffer humiliating defeat and torture.

To my allies “HELP”.

Afflicted with the GB bug:

GB 84
GB 99

Paul

[benmin18]

More death to my enemies! I need help! Someone send me help, SOMEWHERE NON DESCRIPT!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[starkhorn]

aaaahhh so this thread has turned into a gunboat pissing contest.......:D :D

Me also well and truly hooked to gunboat:- G10, G84, G92, G97

It will be interesting when these finish to see who was who et all.

Cheers
Brendan McGoldrick

[benmin18]

Only one as far as I knew.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[vandal]

I agree

Vandal

[benmin18]

Well, the player base for 2950 is much smaller than 1650. One is all that Clint is willing to support right now. However if a second one dores start up, I'd be tempted to do that one as well.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[benmin18]

Well, as far as I know only one person dropped in the current 2950 GB game. Everyone else is still in and fighting, and right now it's quite a fight from what I can see.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[The Eternal]

If another gunboat 2950 started up i'd definitely be up for it. Currently giving 1650 gunboat a go, but i'd prefer to give 2950 a shot.

Alan

[Clint]

If I were to start taking a set-up list for a 2950 GB game how many would be interested. I don't mean say in 6 months or when Game YY ends but right now?

I have 4 somewhat interested parties and I personally would like to play so that would be 5 any others on this list? (I doubt I'll get all 5 but 2-4 seem likely).

If you are interested email me with your name and I can see if I can get something kicking off.

Clint

[benmin18]

The other side sucks! The other side sucks!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[klub]

Can somebody please post the nation combinations for 2950 GB?

Paul

[benmin18]

WK/CL, FK/BS, WW/QA, Dog/LR, Drag/CO, Lts/IK - DS
NG/Rangers, Woodmen/Noldo, Sinda/NM, Rhun/Rohan, SG/Silvan, DW/Duns - FP

- Ben
Gunboat 229

PS - The other side STILL SUCKS!

[Nimdraug]

Clint, you know I'll commit to it. I'll send a confirmation email to you with my preferences and account number.

Thanks for responding to the Gunboat demand. Gunboat doesn't get alot of ink or forum space because it is by its very nature quiet. So it's all the more compelling that the demand for the GB variant is so strong. It must be an excellent game variant indeed if demand is so high while discussion of it is so subdued.

[vandal]

Not a lot of talk as one cannot give any clue as to what you are playing or doing whilst playing.
Of course I migth be wrong and there is another reason?
Vandal

[benmin18]

Nope, that's the point of gunboat. No communication whatsoever. It's a total guessing game.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Jill Indur]

Gunboat reminds me of the days back when there was no internet. Of course now I don't have to snatch the turns from the postman and the telephone bills are much more lower.

[Nimdraug]

Jill Indur, you are exactly correct, EXACTLY! Gunboat, in my opinion, brings ME PBM much closer to the intent of the game designers.

I spoke with Bill Feild on several occasions and we exchanged correspondence on several more occasions. Also, I attended several gatherings at which Bill Feild and Peter Stassun spoke. Bill always noted that he never envisioned the sort of information-sharing and communication made possible by the internet and world-wide-web. The game was designed with limited communications in mind.

I repeat: the game was designed with limited communications in mind.

Now, nothing says that players must be bound by the design intentions of two guys. Indeed, I welcome the variety and the greater number of choices available to ME PBM players. It is a testament to the genius of Bill and Pete that they designed a game that is so variable and adaptable.

It just so happens that my preference is for the GB variant. It also just so happens that the GB variant brings ME PBM closer to the experience envisioned by Bill and Pete. In that sense, much of the subtler design considerations play out in GB in ways that do not happen in the other variants. That's what I really love about GB: the subtlety and layered, textured feel of the GB game. And that is the feeling that I believe Bill Feild envisioned and strove for in the game design.

[Rommel88]

Hey guys...

Great idea for a thread...

A few points on GB97 that has been mentioned above (articles in Bree 23) and general views on GB games...

1. I really enjoyed the game - suspense, working out what was going on and trying to 2nd guess the movement of my enemies and well as my allies. Great anticipation!

2. It really gives you the opportunity to try "anything" out without the need/compulsion to consult with the team. I am having HUGE :D success with a particular strategy in one GB game...

3. Def agree with the comments being expressed so far: time needed CAN be 1/5 beacause you have no emails to respond to or generate. And most imprtantly - I agree with Nimdraug - it adds a nice new dimension to "communication". There still is communication - but it is within the game, should players choose to use it [I sent 23 steel to the Corsairs for e.g. as the QA: the message being: Swords in Dunland - join me and attack!]

Now then ---- 2950 GB, hmm Im def interested and didnt realise Clint had opened this game up to GB. Will take a look...

[Nimdraug]

Romel88 (and Rommel was a master with the 88s, wasn't he?), your point about the suspense in Gunboat games is a good one. Too many of the standard games had become suspense-less and life-less for me as each player's orders became subordinated to a larger, orchestrated -- almost mecahanical-- process of coordinating orders among the larger team. Suspense all but completely disappeared.

Gunboat changes that dramatically in a way that makes the game exciting and fresh and suspenseful again.

I've got my sign-up in for the new 2950 GB game that is filling. I expect it to fill up pretty fast.

[Gildring]

Since the talent and interest pool seems to be so high, I think I'll join the newly-forming 2950 GB game. It would add an extra thrill to know I was either winning with or beating Clint.

Nick

[darrell]

I've never played Gunboat, and I've never played 2950, but I signed up anyway, looks like great fun after suffering losses in my last 3 games. :(

[Clint]

It would add an extra thrill to know I was either winning with or beating Clint.

Yeh we always (that is the GM team) seem to get a lot of interest in playing us. :p

Lots of fun - game 220 (2950 normal) is just about to end as is my Bofa game so I want another challenge. I like the "no need to chat to allies" bit of GB and also testing out the actual individual skill. What I don't enjoy is the lack of team-work or support in the game but there has to be a price to pay for no chatting... :rolleyes:

Best bit is the trying out new tactics - I am dying to talk about my 1650 GB game when it finally ends... :cool:

Clint (mostly player)

[Nimdraug]

Darrell, you are in for a treat! GB is truly a blast. It's unlike any other variant in that you are all on your own. But . . . not exactly alone.

As Rommel88 said above, you spend alot of time trying to anticipate your enemies moves and a fair amount of time anticipating your allies' moves.

You're not completely isolated because you play two nations. And that makes much more of a difference than I originally thought it would. GB wouldn't work without that.

But you also have allies, namely, the other DS or Free players. Often one of these will provide aid (unsolicited, of course, since communication of any kind with other players is not allowed) of an unexpected kind: a gold shipment or a very fortunate appearance of a friendly army icon at just the right spot.

I hope you end up loving your GB expereince as much as the rest of us. Let us know how you like it.

[Nimdraug]

Clint, it's not entirely accurate to say that GB has a lack of teamwork or support. It does have both; they're just much more subtle. See my response to Darrell immediately above. Often your fellow allegiance players provide support. Also, you have to think smaller in GB, in my opinion. Incremental gains, small victories, steady progress -- in short, a scale that befits an alliance confined to two natiions.

I look forward to the opportunity to whip you or to provide my generous and unsloicited aid to you in the upcoming 2950 GB game.

[Rommel88]

I have enquired about the new 2950 GB; hope I get onboard :-) ..... first turn to ponder over Xmas would be great ;-)

[Clint]

Game filled as soon as Chris Geggus and Bryn Lloyd get their set-up choices in.

If they get them in by Monday then I'll probably get the game out by Wednesday.

Clint

[Nimdraug]

Wow, a 2950 Gunboat game goes from "taking set-ups" to "filled" in one week!

It looks as though the Gunboat variant is growing steadily (and perhaps dramatically) in popularity.

Thanks, Clint, for accomodating all of us GB game lovers AND for accomodating all the other variants and preferences enjoyed by this wonderful and varied community of ME PBM players.

[Rommel88]

So will this be the first 2950 GB?

[The Eternal]

as far as i know this will be the 2nd 2950 GB game, i believe the first one is still running.

Looking forward to this one, which i hope will be a good game.

Al

[benmin18]

The other side still sucks! My side rules!!!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Brian Mason]

I couldn't find the info, it's probably out there somewhere and I missed it.

What are the 1650 Gunboat pairings?

... and why is it called gunboat anyway?

Brian

[benmin18]

Gunboat is a term used to describe 'diplomacy' or rather the lack thereof.

Also, for ANYONE interested I have all of my G237 2950 Gunboat PDF files as the Dog Lord/Long Rider. The game went 27 turns or something before it ended, so if you're interested drop me a line and I'll be happy to send along the files, bmin@pixelops.com.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Gildring]

Hey Ben,

I wouldn't mind see how the Enemy operates. Care to send me the G237 PDF files? Did you win that game?

Nick

[benmin18]

Originally posted by Gildring
Hey Ben,

I wouldn't mind see how the Enemy operates. Care to send me the G237 PDF files? Did you win that game?

Nick

Yeah, the DS side won after we eliminated enough FP nations.

As for learning how I play, Gunboat won't tell ya much. At least nothing that will help you in 225. :)

Send me an e-mail and I'll send you the files.

- Ben
Gunboat, 229

[Clint]

Gunboat is a game designed by Chris Courtiour with minor modifications by us. You play 2 nations (separated on the map usually) and attempt to win the game normally. (Ie vanquishing your opposition). The major difference is NO diplomacy allowed and some specific rules on impacting on your allied nations (basically you're not allowed to detriment an ally).

It's an individual game and like all such you are attempting an individual victory but within the team victory as normal. Lots of fun.

Clint

[Gildring]

Hi Clint!

A minor point, but I would argue that the Woodmen/Noldor combination is too strong. I'm not sure who I would substitute if it were up to me: maybe Rohan/Woodmen and Noldor/Rhun.

Anyone else agree with me here? Not that we'll change anything before the new 2950 game, just curious.

-- Nick

[benmin18]

Noldo/Woodmen are just fine, in my opinion. You have one wealthy nation with one poor nation. In coordinated games the Woodmen are VERY vulnerable to be knocked out early on. And in an uncoordinated game it's even easier since the Silvan and Sinda are both controlled by different players and neither will have a clue as to what the Dragon Lord will do and how to best defend the Woodmen.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Rommel88]

OK Can anybody out there advise on how much 2950 Gunboat will be different to 1650?

I am very familiar with the 1650 format....Gunboat/Normal/Team games but have only played 2950 once and wasn't really taken with the slow ponderous build-up and apparent biase that the DS has --- still good agents etc without the FP counter-balancing the equation with troop numbers + recruitment potential.

Any ideas welcome...

:rolleyes:

[Gildring]

Rommel88-- GB 2950 will be very different from 1650. Of course, it will have some aspects similar to the 2950 scenerio, like the necessity to get camps down and build up your nation. But I like the leaner/meaner approach where characters/spells and artifacts actually affect the outcome of battles, instead of 1650's efficacy of hordes.

And well-fortified pop. centers, like Dol Guldur, present a REAL challenge to the opposition, rather than being little more than a speed-bump to the Dwarves in 1650.

You may guess I'm a favorite of 2950. But the really cool aspect is the "fog of war" element where you need to gather information in order for your mission to be successful.

Scout Pop. Center, Scry Area, palantir, recons, and reveal characters-- all these spells and actions gain an added importance since you have only yourself to rely on for information.

Cheers! I'm ready to receive those new set-ups. Hopefully I get mine when I get home from seeing Return of the King at my local matinee.

Nick

[Nimdraug]

Brian Mason wrote:
"I couldn't find the info, it's probably out there somewhere and I missed it.

What are the 1650 Gunboat pairings?

... and why is it called gunboat anyway? "

Brian, I'm delighted you have some interest in the Gunboat variant. I think as a veteran player you will truly enjoy GB if you decide to go ahead and give it a try. I feel the same applies to Tom Walton.

You can read more about GB at the following links:
(1) http://www.halo5.net/mepbm/bree/bree12.pdf This edition contains the original GB proposal by Chris Courtier.
(2) http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/tow...down/bree23.pdf This edition contains two first-hand accounts of GB game experience. These articles are by Mike Sankey and Bryn Lloyd.

The 1650 GB pairings are as follws:
4/22 Arthedain/Harad
6/23 N Gondor/Dunland
7/1 S Gondor/Woodmen
8/2 Dwarves/Northmen
9/5 Sindar/Cardolan
10/3 Noldor/Eothraim

18/14 Fire King/Cloud Lord
20/24 Dark Lieutenants/Rhudaur
16/19 Ice King/Long Rider
11/15 Blind Sorcerer/Witch King
17/13 Quiet Avenger/Dog Lord
12/21 Dragon Lord/Corsairs

I hope you decide to give GB a try. I'm confident you'll enjoy it.

[Brian Mason]

Thanks for the information. I have no doubt I'll play gunboat at some point in the future when I can afford to slip one game under the radar of the watchful eye of my chief economist. :-) For now, I'll have to just be a lurker.

The 1650 pairings are interesting to me. The 4/22 pairing seems especially vulnerable to the FP --- Harad isolated and an obvious target of the QA, Co, and CL training and Arthedain without a backup (and given Harad's position, I wouldn't think one there is too stable either). I don't see an obvious weak DS pairing.

The 9/5 and 11/15 pairings looks quite good. The combination of good characters and hiring armies is really nice. If the WK and BS swap a MTown then the DS have a fighting chance in Eriador. The agents of 16/19 look pretty lethal, too.

It's interesting that in 12 vs 12 1650 the Corsairs (Harad) are FP (DS) and in GB 1650 they are DS (FP).

Unfortunately, I don't think Tom will be joining me in playing me-pbm. It's probably the best thing for him, but I will miss him.

Glad to be remembered, thanks!

Brian

[Clint]

Gunboat 1650 Game 36 has just ended - t'was all but up for the Dark Servants for a few turns. Congrats to John Welty (SG/Wo) for beating me to 1st... cheese... :-)

Lots of fun - bad luck to the Dragon Lord player who attempted to assassinate my army at 2715 and lost his agent and all the items, including the Ring of Wind and his big starting mage item... Amroth for godhood...

Great fun with big armies - ended up with 8k hc with the one nation and had to reduce the other nation to 6k hc due to the restraints on my economy. Heh,heh, heh. Lost my 91 Agent with 30 Stealth on the penultimate turn (scouting not showing up any enemy agents when there were 2 tasty) hurt a fair bit but I've learnt a lot from the game - what to do and what not to do. Reckon it was Din Ohtar!

Interaction: Finally on turn 37 got a Curse item having hounded the Dog Lord for a while trying to hunt it down. Earlier on I had transferred Mothras and sat at the Dun capital for a few turns with Hallas and Ringling (hint, hint as I knew he had E Mere Vardo) but didn't get the Curse Item I was looking for.

Sent the Woodmen some gold early in the game but nothing returned. Tried upgrading and transferring food from friendly pcs but never got any. Actually lost 2 pcs (both MTs) to Friendly 525s - I had captured that turn and they had 525ed - cheese. At least the Noldo didn't decide to hit my characters (I was at his pc with my agent squad) which was good news for both of us.

Battlewise - Dun and Cardolan turned up at Rhudaur capital - I went for destroy he went for capture (or vice-versa) - bad news for us. I didn't see a single Arthedain coming south all game or in the East. Woodmen, Duns and myself (and on turn 35ish the Eothraim with a small army) at Morannon but that was about all militarily and combined attacks. Duns and myself hunted down CL towns in the game and took out Ithil Pass (he got the glory!)

End of the game I own 3221, 3122, 3222 (town), 3421 (mt), 3622, 3624, 3630, 3929 so that was fun and hard logisitically to organise. Rhudaur is mostly Dun (some Card) and WK mine. Eothraim had got hit in the game and I could see a lot of pcs destroyed by mid-game but only send over a couple thousand HI to see what was up. NM who got kicked early in the game but by the end belonged to the Dwarf again.

Good strong play by the QA/Dog combo (Kevin Ingram), tenacious play by the DkL (Fletcher Brown).

Information gathering - never did get a palantir... :-( Generally just went for it with the armies and 925s & 940 428/430s with the occasional doubled enemy character. The market was pretyt much very rich which must suite the DS - well the number of st/st HC armies I met implied that as well.

Must play again... let's see if I can convince the GM that another 1650 GB game can be sorted... :-)

Clint (Sin/Card) (player)

[Øystein]

Originally posted by Clint
Gunboat 1650 Game 36 has just ended - t'was all but up for the Dark Servants for a few turns. Congrats to John Welty (SG/Wo) for beating me to 1st... cheese... :-)

Earlier on I had transferred Mothras and sat at the Dun capital for a few turns with Hallas and Ringling (hint, hint as I knew he had E Mere Vardo) but didn't get the Curse Item I was looking for.

Battlewise - Dun and Cardolan turned up at Rhudaur capital - I went for destroy he went for capture (or vice-versa) - bad news for us. I didn't see a single Arthedain coming south all game or in the East. Woodmen, Duns and myself (and on turn 35ish the Eothraim with a small army) at Morannon but that was about all militarily and combined attacks. Duns and myself hunted down CL towns in the game and took out Ithil Pass (he got the glory!)

End of the game I own 3221, 3122, 3222 (town), 3421 (mt), 3622, 3624, 3630, 3929 so that was fun and hard logisitically to organise. Rhudaur is mostly Dun (some Card) and WK mine. Eothraim had got hit in the game and I could see a lot of pcs destroyed by mid-game but only send over a couple thousand HI to see what was up. NM who got kicked early in the game but by the end belonged to the Dwarf again.

Good strong play by the QA/Dog combo (Kevin Ingram), tenacious play by the DkL (Fletcher Brown).

Clint (Sin/Card) (player)

Yeah, I noticed you there, and figured you were fishing for Vardo, but I still had 3 mages to teach Curses to. Sorry :)

North Gondor managed to keep alive to the very end, despite the DS getting me down to four characters, and on the second to last turn they infed Minas Tirith away. Also killed most of the highlevel Dun agents who turned up there to save it.

Duns ended up with half of Rhudaur, 2619 (City), 3223, 3224, 3426, 3923, 3922. Burnt most of the soft cities in inner mordor.

The Dragon Lord foiled my attempt to get onto 3822 to burn his final MT. Dragon got my army, but I had a good run with those HC. Had another 3300HI + 2000HC (w/steel) at 3525 going for the remaining MT in the Mordor area.

All in all a fun game. Thought for a while that NGondor would bite it, but managed to keep it alive with continued gold shipments.

Also got all my PDFS around still if someone wants a copy :)

Other highpoints: Watching a Dog Lord army splat against 3224 killing a General ranked character on turn 33. Capturing Bulrakur and suddenly gaining 65 Command ranks from the artifacts he carried.

Øystein
Cardolan + N-Gondor

[Woody]

Game 36 GB "Just Ended"

Picked up Arthedain & Harad on turn 14, think they had ss'd since turn 10 and Harad was in a pretty bad way. Hung on in the south until turn26 when Dragon Lord took 2734. Only left with 3 pc's in the North and half a dozen characters Harad spent most of his time rebuilding.

Having ss'd Arthedain was too late to the party in the NW with all the goodies and Rhu/WK pc's going elsewhere. Argeleb did manage to crack his head on the walls of 1804 whilst the Cardolan army watched! Ended with 2 strong agent squads and a bunch of kills hunting down the DkLts.

Poor DrL agent with RoC tried to assasinate useless Harad character got himself on the wrong side of his knife. The Gods were against you!

Arthedain did manage to rustle up the cash to send 2000hc to Mordors backdoor but everywhere I went it seemed the FP had already got there.

Ian Wood

Arthedain & Harad

[klub]

Any new GB games (1650 or 2950) taking setups?

Paul

[Clint]

1650 2wk:[Game 12]: 8 duo of nations available.[17/12/03]

The 1650 GB pairings are as follws:
4/22 Arthedain/Harad
6/23 N Gondor/Dunland
7/1 S Gondor/Woodmen
8/2 Dwarves/Northmen
9/5 Sindar/Cardolan
10/3 Noldor/Eothraim

18/14 Fire King/Cloud Lord
20/24 Dark Lieutenants/Rhudaur
16/19 Ice King/Long Rider
11/15 Blind Sorcerer/Witch King
17/13 Quiet Avenger/Dog Lord
12/21 Dragon Lord/Corsairs

4 signed up so far.

Clint

[Clint]

Having ss'd Arthedain was too late to the party in the NW with all the goodies and Rhu/WK pc's going elsewhere. Argeleb did manage to crack his head on the walls of 1804 whilst the Cardolan army watched! Ended with 2 strong agent squads and a bunch of kills hunting down the DkLts.

Yeh - after being stung at the Rhudaur capital I didn't want to risk it - but your suicide got my Threaten off nicely... :-) (Thanks). What happened to Harad - I was moving down there to see what was up - landed on the QA capital with some agents and got nicely stomped there? Cor (DS) and SG seemed both to do well so I wondered what the situation in that part of the world was like?

Clint (player)

[benmin18]

How am I supposed to taunt my Gunboat opponents if turns don't run next week???? AUGH!!!!!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Blue Knight]

I have a question ,

Which side wins more in a gunboat game -- the freeps or evils !! I ask this as i have taken over a friends gunboat postion for two turns as he had a death in the family and after playing just two turn i have the opinion that the freeps are better off or get the advantage with a no communication between players rule !!

Also would like to know the statistics on which side get more artifacts in a game -- with no communication between players am wondering if the Noldo or noldo combination of two nation played winds up with most of the choice arties !!

Somehow after just playing a couple turns i get the feeling that the freeps probably win in a gunboat version with those rules 75% or better of the games !!

Mike

[benmin18]

There haven't been enough Gunboats run in either scenario to really tell. I know that there has only been one completer 2950 GB and the DS won that. Two are ongoing, one just started and the other, 229, is going into turn 11.

It really depends on style of play. With no communication between teammates and the DS having the more defendable positions, the advantages does seem to swing towards the DS since it takes quite a bit of coordination between the FP to KO the fortified DS positions. Gram, Gundabad, Dol Goldur, and Angrenost are not easy nuts to crack with teamwork by the FP.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Rommel88]

This is a reply to a post by loraelin....

Yes, I agree that the QA/FK combo worked really well in a GB and anybody interested can read my article in Bree 23.

I was somewhat surprised when I read quite a few posts and this forum and the yahoo one which cast doubt on the strength of the combination and subsequently changed the DS combos for all other GB games. .......:confused:

EVEN more irritating was that as I was currently playing the 2 nations in GB95 to argue the case could well have given away my identity..

Lets have a SWAP IT BACK campaign!

[Rommel88]

Anybody know of a good link with updated 2950 artifact info? Bobbins and this site do not appear to have all the secondary powers listed...

[Gildring]

More on the FreeP or DS advantage in GB scenerios, I would agree that the FP might have a better chance of winning this type of scenerio. Since information comes at a premium, the burden shifts to the Cloud Lord and other assassins to spend precious orders gathering information before setting up the kill.

In other scenerios all they have to do is plant an agent in Osgiliath and email their teammates, say the FK or IK, to get the name of the Gondorian army commander there. Not any more.

I realize that the Wk can now apply that info to the Cloud Lord, but he'll still have to spend resources getting information about other areas and 1 nation does not equal 8 others in regular 2950 scenerios.

Just my two cents...

N.

[darrell]

Originally posted by Rommel88
Anybody know of a good link with updated 2950 artifact info? Bobbins and this site do not appear to have all the secondary powers listed...

I found this page recently:

http://www.sci.fi/~jon1/KM/Lucinda/Artifacts.html

I'll be incorporating this info inthe this forum as soon as I get some spare time.

[Clint]

Not sure of the win/loss ration. I think it's 1 DS in 2950 and 1650: 1 FP 1 DS win so far. I've had quite a few differing opinions on who are stronger but I personally think it's down to how good the players are. Invariably there are drop outs and that does have an impact on the game so committed players on your side will have a bigger than normal impact.

Other than that I think either side is more than capable of winning.

Clint (player)

[klub]

Gildring wrote:
I would agree that the FP might have a better chance of winning this type of scenerio. Since information comes at a premium, the burden shifts to the Cloud Lord and other assassins to spend precious orders gathering information before setting up the kill.

In other scenerios all they have to do is plant an agent in Osgiliath and email their teammates, say the FK or IK, to get the name of the Gondorian army commander there. Not any more.

The CL & FK pairing in GB allow the CL assassins to be effective in the Osgiliath - Minas Ithil area as you describe above, though actions further a field are certainly impaired by the lack of double scouting agents and other intelligence.
I enjoy the fact that super-agents of both alignments seem to appear a little later in GB games and guards are more likely to succeed in their missions against them.

Paul

[klub]

Gildring,

My post above only pertains to GB 1650, so apologies if you were referring to GB 2950 which I have no experience of.

Paul

[Clint]

I am taking set-ups for a new 1650 Gunboat game. Anyone interested? I have 3 players so far (maybe a few more). Game 14. I have no plans for a 2950 GB game at present until one of the presently running ones end.

Clint

[benmin18]

Death to all my enemies in GB 229! I will make this a quick game and ensure that my side wins! Elves and Nazgul rule! Orcs and Dwarves suck! Down with Gondor! Down with Mordor!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Nimdraug]

Ben, game 229 -- like all the other games -- has taken the Christmas week off. I'm afraid your Free or DS forces can do no harm (or good) to me or any other game 229 players this week. ;)

[benmin18]

I know, I know... Damn it... Stupid Elves... Stupid Nazgul...

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Nimdraug]

Celebion, you raise an important Gunboat issue -- one that has not yet been resolved completely, I think.

I would like to see Clint offer a dropped position as soon as it is known to be dropped to current game players. If the drppoed position has two surviving nations, then split them and offer them singly to current players. Playing three nations may give some advantage to some players; but the quality of game-play is more important to me than victory. Therefore, I would urge that current players be given first crack at dropped positions.

[starkhorn]

Not quite the same point but Gunboat game10 has a new rule already regarding one nation being knocked out and 2nd nation being dropped. See the below rules from game10 messages:-

"Drop outs can be filled - but we will be discrete. Also if one of a duo of nations dies we'll offer the 2nd nation to a team-mate to pick up that nation (and old turns for the "active" nation)."

I think this is a good idea and will hopefully become a standard gunboat rule for all gunboat games.....although we'd need to see how g10 turns out first I guess.

As long as duo dropped nations were split up then I wouldn't have many objections but certainly one person having 4 nations would be unfair.

Cheers and Merry Xmas
Brendan

[Clint]

I won't be offering 2 nations to one player for drop outs. Most players drop when one nation has been killed so it's not usually a problem.

Clint

[benmin18]

Those players who drop out because they screw up one of their nations shouldn't even be playing Gunboat to begin with. Anybody who can't manage their economy should not play Gunboat.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Gildring]

What difference does it make? I'm going to win anyway.

N.
GB 229

[benmin18]

Who says... I'm winning right now, I think... Yeah, I am!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Gildring]

I want to take back an earlier judgment I made regarding the unfairly strong combination of the Noldor and Woodmen in GB 2950 games.

Looking at the set-ups again, I've decided that the Witch-king and Cloud Lord pair is an equal counter-balance to the strong Free one.

Do others agree?

Nick

[benmin18]

Depends on the players. Regardless of the set-ups, I'm still winning!! The Other Side Sucks!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[benmin18]

Gunboat 229 ran again! Hooray!!!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Gildring]

Yes, and my enemies are going to puke with disappointment when they get their results!

(Stupid Elves, stupid nazgul, stupid men, etc.)

-- Good game all

[benmin18]

Yeah, whatever... I'm still winning, so HA!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Nimdraug]

Wow, I just got to look at my turn results in 229! What a fantastic game we're having!

Ben, I have no idea which side you are on in GB 229; but after this last turn, I can say with some confidence that my side is doing quite well. I'm having loads of fun in this one. Game 229 is Gunboat intensity and edge-of-seat excitement at its best!

I'm looking forward to comparing notes when this one is over.

Best wishes to all and Happy New Year!

[benmin18]

Yeah, but I'm still winning. The OTHER SIDE SUCKS!

- Ben
Gunboat, 229

[Fletch]

Havent posted in a while, but see that Gunboat 36 ended.

Got my ass kicked as Rhudaur/Dark Lt's!!

Excellent work to all the NW Fp's, bad army movement on my part and good moves on thiers cost me alot, also it seems almost every free nation put in an appearance. I had Arthedain, Cardolan, Sinda, Duns, Noldo and Dwarves all after my precious towns, it was kind of fun to watch you all fight over the spoils! I did have the consolation of overrunning a Cardi army early on though. Any chance that was Hallas, Clint?

Also, would like to talk to the Noldo player if he is reading this. I managed to capture an army com and ended up with the Mantle of Doriath. I had to play keep away with it then passed it off to Dark Lt's when Rhudaur was collapsing. I think he may have been tracking it since the Noldo agents seemed to always end up right where I was going!! :>I did manage to assassinate Elrond when he tried to challenge Tormog at Barad Dur (thank you high pop loyalty!)

I later passed the Mantle off to the QA when I couldnt find a Corsair character to hand it to!! Also, thanks to the QA for sending my about 30k twice out of the blue. It was a huge help.

I ended the game with only four characters and the Dark LT capitol being Shrel Kain for several turns after the loss of Barad Dur.

Other wacky stuff....Carrog stumbled onto an encounter and netted Elenya fairly early. About two or three turns later I had him investigate another hole in the ground and some wights ate him. Gothmog arrogantly went out the Black Gate, got his army wrecked in the Eoplex and was then overrun while trying to make his escape. Urzahil lasted nearly until the end and then some joker actually kidnapped him.......

Overrall very fun as it was my first GB outting. Rhudaur blows, but the Dark Lt's make up for it since they have the option to do almost anything, agents, emmis and mage skills abound, so I dont think the parring is too flawed. I would just say that dont count on Rhudaur for much unless you are really skilled with them or your opponents suck! :>

Now I have to wait for GB 84 and 97 to wrap up. I am certainly doing much better in these!!

Fletch

Rhu/Dark Lts's GB36
GB84 ??
GB97 ??

[Clint]

I did have the consolation of overrunning a Cardi army early on though. Any chance that was Hallas, Clint?

Not Hallas but no idea who it was- what turn and I can check.

I ended the game with only four characters and the Dark LT capitol being Shrel Kain for several turns after the loss of Barad Dur.

Yeh I bounced twice trying to assassinate you there.. Gothmog arrogantly went out the Black Gate

Yep t'was I - did a lot of over-running DS armies in the game... Lots of fun

Clint (player)

[Øystein]

As a member of the Gunship game <censored>, I must only say: Cry <censored> and slip the <censored> of <censored>! The <censored> will wreck his/her/theirs/its revenge/retribution/vengance/holy spirits upon the people/orcs/dwaves/elves/whatever who dare to oppose the <censored> <censored>!

Emissary <censored> of <censored>

[Fletch]

Clint, not sure on the turn, it was fairly early on. I was heading for the towns on the coast of Cardolan with a Rhudaur army. Doesnt matter really. It was probably about a turn or two before the Sinda marines showed up and spoiled my party. I had the graveyard encounter the turn before and ended up with a handful of Mithril weapons that I never managed to use!!

Fletch

[Clint]

Yeh it was a shock to see your armies in the heartland of Cardoplex - tooks turns to clear up the mess. Luckily enough I expected something cunning and underhand - well maybe... :-)

Clint (player)

[blind one 118]

I haven't played in a gb game yet although I just signed up for one...the thought that comes to mind about player communication to me is that is the work of emissaries....an order could be made to pick up a message in your capital<limited to a certain number of words> then that emissary would have to take it to the capital you want the message delivered to and use a deliver message order...naturally this message would have to be written at the time of pickup and may be obsolete by the time it reaches the intended target...not sure how practical this would be as far as the game masters are concerned

[Clint]

Not very practical for us I am afraid. We tried limited diplomacy GB games but over half the players don't bother sending diplos each turn - basically players who post here are keen enough (or enough time) to chat and the others don't particularly want to chat just want to play the game. It's a generalisation and like all such not 100% correct but pretty close.

Clint (GM)

[vandal]

Indeed enjoy just getting on with the GB stuff without any worries about team play and who wins either.

Vandal

[blind one 118]

I have a question on what constitutes an unknown character...if you have identified the character as belonging to an enemy nation say ten turns ago....can you safely assume that it is still an enemy charater and take action against it even if it isn't at a friendly pop center or do you have to actually identify it the turn before the offensive action? <probably a dumb question but I like asking those the best> also starting characters...can we assume we know who they belong to?

[Clint]

Yes - if you are ever in doubt ask us directly though as some players just risk it and if we find out we will penalise those players.

Clint (GM)

[benmin18]

DEATH TO MY ENEMIES!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

I really need someone to trade taunts with.

[Clint]

Note we just need one more player to fill the game. Get in touch with your list of nations. Almost definitely filled by the end of the w/end and very likely tomorrow... :-)

Clint (GM)

[Sc0rp10]

With so much discussion about what is and what isn't allowed within the gunboat game, Clint, will you / can you put out a rulesheet with the start ups and a Q&A on all clarrifications.

Cheers

[Clint]

I have done and there's one in this list somewhere as well. If you want the rules get in touch with me and I'll send them on.

Clint (GM)

[Fierein]

Would love to trade taunts with you Ben.. Shame I have no idea which side your on...

Thomas
Gunboat 229


Originally posted by benmin18
DEATH TO MY ENEMIES!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

I really need someone to trade taunts with.

[Gildring]

GB 229 ran today! Some ups and some downs. Good game to all. Just a friendly reminder for all to abide by the no-communico rules. If you talk with teammates about the game you are not only unsportsmanlike, you are scum.

And don't even try telepathy, the long-distance charges are outrageous.

Nick
GB 229
ME 225
GB 020

[benmin18]

I still rule.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Nimdraug]

Well-said, Gildring!

Gunboat is a game in which at the outset players make a pledge of honor not to ATTEMPT disallowed forms of communication. If you cannot make or maintain that pledge of honor, then please do not play Gunboat. There are plenty of other variants for you: Grudge, WOTR, team games, etc. that allow all the communication you wish.

That said, I have not encountered (or recognized) any acts in any of my games that violate that pledge.

Best wishes to all.

[benmin18]

I'm number one!!!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[benmin18]

Gunboat 229 ran again! To my allies, SEND HELP!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[NCody]

I don't know if I'm helping you or killing you, but it's a good game nonetheless.

Nick
GB 229

[benmin18]

Turns run tomorrow, let's hope for some good results!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[benmin18]

Well, how did things go for everyone?

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[88 Noldo]

Pretty fair. I think Darrell has identified you from you postings, so that condition may not last long.

[benmin18]

I've had good and bad turns. But I doubt Darrell or anyone else knows who I am. Heck, he and I might even be on the same side. But we won't know until it's over.

And with the current list of dead nations, I don't think this game is ending any time soon. It's going to rough going for both sides.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[88 Noldo]

Shucks, Ben, I thought I might get a rise out of you.

[benmin18]

Well, I never really paid attention to the player list to begin with. But the list of names is impressive.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[Nimdraug]

I never got to see the player list since my nations in 229 are from a dropped position. You guys should all be thanking me for saving the game from the ruin of dropped nations. ;)

So out of gratitude for my generosity, I request that no one attack or maneuver to attack me for at least the next three turns. Got that, everyone?

[benmin18]

I smell blood...

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[blind one 118]

GO BLUE!!!!!!!! what the hell is a buckeye anyway? kinda sounds like a pea

[benmin18]

It's a tree with a poisonous nut, as opposed to some over-sized rodent you guys go ga-ga over....

- Ben
Gunboat Buckeye 229

[blind one 118]

ok...now I have to decide if I was a buckeye would I rather be a pea or a nut...no wonder buckeye fans are so bitter...most people don't know what they are..and then if they find out all you get is sympathy lol

[benmin18]

What do we we have to be bitter about? Not our fault that Michigan sucks.

- Ben
Buckeye

[klub]

I don't give a f*** 'bout the whole state of Michigan...
Ann Arbor is a Whore


Ben,

I'm from Europe, but what is wrong with Ann Arbor and Michigan?

[blind one 118]

Ann Arbor is where the wolverines are...we beat the ohio state buckeyes <a lot> so they hate us....can ya blame em? of course this arguement better belongs in a sports forum since they decided akhorahil was to old to play a few centuries back

[88 Noldo]

Bad news Ben. I think Darrell is currently at OSU.

[benmin18]

Not as a student... And I'm an alum.

As for the Wolverines, whatever... Just get over that fact that you guys don't have a true national championship. Somebody's jealous...

- Ben
Buckeye

[benmin18]

Originally posted by klub
Ben,

I'm from Europe, but what is wrong with Ann Arbor and Michigan?

I went to The Ohio State University and our rival is the University of Michigan which is in Ann Arbor, Michigan. You can basically equate it to how two rival football clubs dislike each other like Barcelona and Real Madrid. But our rivalry has been going on for over a hundred years.

- Ben
Buckeye

[88 Noldo]

Maybe he is a professor.

[benmin18]

Whatever the case, makes no difference to me... We all know what I think of him.

- Ben

[NCody]

While I can not disclose what nations I command or alliance I am fighting on, I CAN state with confidence that I will win this game. Are my enemies ready to roll over yet?

That about wraps it up for my GB trash-talking.

Nick

[benmin18]

Blah... Elves and Nazgul suck... I rule.

- Ben
Buckeye 229

[benmin18]

Damn it, someone trade taunts with me!!!!

- Ben
Bored Buckeye

[Fletch]

Buckeyes suck!!!

I Rule!!

Feel Better???

Fletch
GB 19
GB 97

[benmin18]

Gunboat 229 runs tomorrow! DEATH TO MY ENEMIES!

I RULE!

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[benmin18]

Ok, Gunboat ran, you all know the drill.. Yippee...

No one gets excited for anything, sheesh.

- Ben
Gunboat 229

[NCody]

Oh, I wish I could brag, but my hands and tongue are tied.

But anyway, as this turn clearly shows, I rule!

(Humans, Nazgul, Elves, Dwarves, suck)

Nick GB 229

[Fierein]

Well that could narrow down who you could be, which in turn might let you know who I am.

Everyone else sucks, whilst I RULE!

Thomas
Gunboat 229

also in

Gunboat 6 and 140

[benmin18]

Hmmmmm... the game has suddenly turned very interesting...

- Ben
Gunboat 229, 237

[NCody]

Interesting in the sense that I'm still kicking a whole lotta butt...

Nick
GB 229

[benmin18]

I might be kicking your butt...

- Ben
Gunboat 229, 237

[NCody]

Is that where that footprint came from?

Nick
GB 229

[benmin18]

I think I just got my own footprint...

- Ben
Gunboat 229, 237

[benmin18]

*Laugh* It sure as hell wasn't from you.

- Ben
Gunboat 229, 237

[benmin18]

Or well, maybe it was... *Chuckle* I'm actually doing quite well, if I do say so myself.

- Ben
Gunboat 229, 237

[benmin18]

I realize that, and no offense taken.

- Ben
Gunboat 229, 237

[benmin18]

Oh yeah....

I RULE!!!!

That's about it...

- Ben
Gunboat 229. 237

[Fierein]

I just wish those on my team (whichever one that may be) would pull their finger out of their arse and actually do something...

Feeling very lonely against what seems to be the entire opposing team <sigh!>

Still holding my own and giving better than I am getting in some places.. all because

I RULE 16[/SIZE]

[benmin18]

Maybe they are doing something, just nothing that's helping you directly.

- Ben
Gunboat 229, 237

[Fierein]

Perhaps... Perhaps.........

Whatever it is though it isn't scaring the enemy much though.. or at least not from my point of view. Hopefully when turns swap at endgame I might be able to see what they were upto <grin>.

Thomas
Gunboat 6, 140 and 229

[SMoyes]

If you guys think gunboat is intense, try playing a "WHOLE SIDE!!"

There is nothing to compare with it. I'm on my second game now and boy is it "FUN:D "

Scott Moyes

[Player]

Hmm. How about a Whole Side of Gunboat? The game where you aren't allowed to talk to yourself~!

[benmin18]

Originally posted by SMoyes
If you guys think gunboat is intense, try playing a "WHOLE SIDE!!"

There is nothing to compare with it. I'm on my second game now and boy is it "FUN:D "

Scott Moyes

2950? 1650? What's the setup?

- Ben

[SMoyes]

Ben,

It's just a grudge team game where you, alone, have the grudge against another team.

First time it was one on one, this time it's me against a whole grudge team.

Scott

[WessexSlayer]

When all my other games are complete I intend to control all positions of the DS -- he he should be fun. I am sure there will be volunteers to oppose me. Since I will be paying for all the position on my side I assume I have the choice of sides.

and gives me my chance to kick all your sorry arses. And bring my knowledge of tactical minature wargaming to the front

[blind one 118]

I would play an entire side but my voices argue too much so I doubt I'd get any cooperation

[benmin18]

You too, eh? I hear that prozac does wonders to keep the other voices quiet. If not prozac, demerol...

"QUIET YOU!"

- Ben
Gunboat 229, 237

[DaveHolt]

Yeah - the other "voice" I'd hear would be my wife politely informing me that my MEPBM account was way over budget.

[benmin18]

Yeah, but one can easily ignore that voice... Right? Right?

- Ben
Unmarried Gunboat 229, 237

[blind one 118]

I ignored my wife's voice when I was married...little did I know she was saying "watch me hold this dime between my knees"

[VEO]

Question: Why not a single nation per player Gunboat? If this has been covered, I apologize, but this thread is no on it's 11th page...!

Brad

[VEO]

Originally posted by Celebion
Even harder to play single weak nations with no communication/help.

As it must have been "in the beginning". I've read much of the published articles from MoS, on the GSI page, etc, and so many of the nation strategy bits are assuming there will be no help forthcoming from allies - ie, you're alone. I suppose the drop rate would be that much higher, but 2 nations in one game is too big an investment for many. Ah well, no Gunboat for me then.

[Clint]

Question: Why not a single nation per player Gunboat? If this has been covered, I apologize, but this thread is no on it's 11th page...!

11th page indicates its popularity... :-)

The design that Chris came up had the format of 2 nations because of many reasons.

Filled the game faster, allowed your one nation to support the other, paired up weak and strong nations so that you had a tactical choice on which nation duos to play; 1 nation would just be too random and very hard to implement a plan - 2 you can do this very nicely with; 2 nations meant that you are mostly operating in different parts of the map so that if one part of the map is cleared up (either you're out of it or been defeated) then you can invest in the other.


As for drop outs - it's not a problem anymore. I can get pick-ups relatively easily (usually from the game but sometimes outside - pretty much like normal games). So drop rate is actually less than normal games as players invest more of their personal effort into the game (IMO).

I assume "no Gunboat for you" is due to the funding then?

Clint

[VEO]

Originally posted by Clint
I assume "no Gunboat for you" is due to the funding then?

Clint

Essentially yes, in regards to 2-nation format. I don't understand the "weak nation" whine either. I see more fun in the challenge, but I guess I'm different that way.

Brad

[NCody]

Gunboat rocks! I really do see how much more fun the game can be when it is closer to the designer's intentions. Normally, in team-play, like the grudge games I enjoy playing, characters like mages aren't valued, but in Gunboat there is a premium on intel (scrying, revealing, etc) since information is never shared among players.

I'm not sure I'd go with a single-nation game though. It would feel too much like a raw deal to get stuck with one of the weaker nations, or one far away from the action.

Nick
ME 225, 229