Dragons and Threats

[B. D. Percival]

I have a question. Say, for example, a high-level commander (80+) is travelling about Middle Earth with about 2300 mixed troops. He sees a Major Town that he would like to threaten. Now, he knows that normally it takes 2500 troops to threaten a Major Town, but he has a secret weapon. He is travelling with a dragon. The MT has no army there. Does the presence of the Dragon have any effect on his 498 order?

As a second question, will the dragon have any effect on an effort to destroy the population center? In other words, does a Dragon's presence have any effect on pop center combat, when there are no defending armies?

I hope someone can answer this question definitively.

[br_fisher]

(1) No. The dragon has no effect on the threat attempt, though the presence of the dragon will drop or raise loyalties that turn (after the threat fails) depending upon who owns the population center.

(2) Yes. Dragons will help against a population center-- but only if they weren't already in a battle with an army that turn. Also, the attacking army must still survive the battle to capture or destroy the population center.

A. 3000 HI with dragon attacks a motwn/keep. Mtown/keep is captured and the army takes losses. Dragon was the reason that the army had enough offense to take the populatoin center.

B. same as A, but 100 men-at-arms are defending the population center. Dragon is "used up" for the turn eating the 100 MA, so the population center assault FAILS, the attacking army takes losses.

C. same as A, but 100 HI and six dragons are attacking the mtown/keep. The attacking army is destroyed (from the counter-assault from the population center) and thus the mtown/keep is unaffected, even though the attacking army had enough offense to capture or destroy the population center due to the six dragons.

Bradford

[br_fisher]

Don't let the failure of the dragon's name in the population center battle fool you... heroes (and dragons are heroes) and mages never appear in the population center assault report, yet their spells, weapons, and the dragons still help in the assault. (Again, assuming that the dragon hadn't already fought a battle against an army that turn.)

Bradford

[nanook]

Originally posted by B. D. Percival
He sees a Major Town that he would like to threaten. Now, he knows that normally it takes 2500 troops to threaten a Major Town.

The rulebook is misleading here: it's quite possible to successfully Threaten an MT with fewer than 2500 troops.

There are all kinds of theories about how Threats are calculated, but most players agree that the key factors seem to be Comm rank (including arties) vs Loyalty. You'll have more luck with 2000 troops and a C90 than with 3000 troops under a C30.

Beyond that, it gets fuzzy. Most -- but not all -- vets think army size helps and that fortifications make it harder. Some think there's an extra defense against Threats at capitals (I don't, but like everyone else, I'm guessing from a small sampling size).

In any case, as said above, Dragons don't help Threats, but they add a nuclear bonus to the first round of combat.

If this is an important MT to beat, use that Dragon!

[Per Bovbjerg]

On the question, on dragons helping a threat; Yes they do!

This just happened in game 96:
Turn 5: Ashdurbuk Zalg wanders onto 3108 with an army. (No Dragon showed on the pop!).
Turn 6: From the nation rumour of the Northmen:
The loyalty was influenced from the efforts or presence of Smaug at Dale.
And right after:
Dale is no longer under our control.

Ashdurbuk Zalg threatened the pop, and is now on a new pop center with Smaug on tow :|

On the other question, I can confirm what Bradford wrote, dragons will help, but you still need the con to survive.

Cheers

[nanook]

B.D., what Per just referred to is different. Dragons can lower (and raise) loyalty at pc's, and that may have help Ashdurbuk Zalg's Threat attempt.

But as for your above question, "Do dragons count as a bonus when Threatening?", the answer is still: probably not. They certainly don't add the same kind of enormous, conspicuous bonus they do for combat.

[Per Bovbjerg]

Opps... thought that was what B.D. was asking about :)

Thanks Nanook for clearing things up!

/Per

[Gixxer]

(2) Yes. Dragons will help against a population center-- but only if they weren't already in a battle with an army that turn. Also, the attacking army must still survive the battle to capture or destroy the population center.

Bradford[/QUOTE]


Greetings Warlord,
are you really sure about this ?

Let's say you'll try to attack an undefended pop-center and the dragon will attack together with the army ( round 1 ) he'll help the army to destroy/capture the pop-center ?

Do you know if the dragon will fight wiht his full strength ( 50000, I guess ) ?

Have Fun !

Gixxxer

[VEO]

Gixxer,

Yes, he's sure. Dragons help. It's confirmed monthly on this forum in different threads. As to their strength changing (ala war machines), it would be virtually impossible to determine. Your guess for dragon strength's is high end. While one may accept the possibility of randomization, their strengths (likely) range from the 20's to the 40's with only 2 big olde baddies pencilled in for more than that. The key is that dragons are NPC's and are not all the same. They have characters and personalities too, some are old and some are young, etc... Daeron and Gandalf are different, so are dragons.

The rumours on that pdf seem odd, but seem to confirm a position I've long argued - dragons join the armies at the point of the 285. You'll notice in your Rules that Loyalty is attached to Receive Production/Revenue/Loyalty as #4 in the General Sequence of Events. This hints that Loyalty changes as a result of tax increases/decreases occurs immediately at that point, and other loyalty affecting factors (excepting Emissary Orders, a seperate section) occur at that point also. Combat affects loyalty, of course, but again, that's before this point. So the dragon was at the Encounter hex at 285 and immediately thereafter, upon successful resolution, is considered to be in the army. Loyalty is changed at 300, after this point, so the Dragon message appears, well before the 498.

While I'm here: Anyone confirm dragon deaths? I've myself had dragon armies overrun and that dragon has returned again, so he wasn't killed like everyone else travelling "with" the army. What about challenged dragons? Anyone kill one in combat only to have it return same game?

Brad

[br_fisher]

Gixxer,

Yes, I'm sure that dragons help in population center combat. Test it and see for yourself! I talked to the programmers long, long ago with GSI when they were still communicating (1991?). It was my first game, and when something odd would happen that wasn't explained by the rules (or seemed contrary to it) I'd call them up and snarl wanting to know why things didn't go as I expected. Usually involving army movement, but dragons were the other issue.




Brad,

Dragons in over-run armies fly away and aren't killed; sort of like when you turn the army into a navy.

On the other hand, Dragons killed in challenges don't come back. (When I say "challenge" I'm talking about the 210 order. It's not the same thing to attack the dragon via an encounter, apparently that uses a different combat "system" even though challenge ranks are considered. GSI explained this when someone playing the Sinda in 2950 had Galadriel killed ATTACKing a dragon in 2950 shortly after it came out. I vaguely recall the player claimed her challenge rank was 300+ due to the two elven rings being on her, plus the mirror, etc.? The player was furious and wanted to know how she was killed. GSI explained that a different combat system was used, even though the character's challenge rank affected the likelihood of the result. None of this was me, I just read GSI's response).

Sometimes the Free will put together a "dragon killer" with a dragon-slaying sword and run around challenging them to get rid of them, or they'll challenge and kill the dragon in the opposing army before the battle, surprising the unsuspecting dark servant. Of course, Dragons have ludicrously high challenge ranks (no one knows just how high) but assume around 200+ to kill one.

This is always dangerous. The Noldo tried to play the dragon-slaying game in 85, killed one, then had Glofindel killed with a 240 challenge rank on dragon #2. The point is it's always risky (but entertaining) to try it. The challenge picture is nice. (I challenged Sauron once, my recollection is that his picture was a dragon too, which I thought was disappointing.)

Bradford

[VEO]

"Fly away"...right, of course. Thanks for the confirm on dragon's being killed with finality. I've killed a couple of the weaker ones in a game without taking a scratch thus far. Smaug and Itangast, OTOH, will wait until I'm a little stronger.. ;)

The problem with 210 before combat is you're likely in a relative hot spot in regards to agents and cursers. Likely better to wander the misties and respond to allies rumours when they show themselves.

[tonyz]

Actually, 200+ wouldn't even scratch a dragon (barring critical success); you need at least 250, and more would be better. I've had Galadriel at 263 die challenging a dragon.

[Gixxer]

Many thanks mates,
looking on my current information it looks like a dragon will attack with an army in the case the pop-center is undefended.
I've also asked some more players in private mails.

Let's say the answers started with " I've heard ..., etc ", so I'll try to find it out and let you know about the outcome.

Challenging a dragon, huuuh not a good idea.
That's something I've tried before with a char of 250+ ( combat- and comm-arties ), a warrior not a mage.
The warrior was killed.
Daelomin with her poisoned breath killed him before theye were able to dance a bit.

What a "zikke" !

Maybe a mage would have done it a bit better, but my interest in challenging a dragon is very down since I've made this experience.

Thanks and Have Fun !

Gixxx

[VEO]

Actually, 200+ wouldn't even scratch a dragon (barring critical success); you need at least 250, and more would be better. I've had Galadriel at 263 die challenging a dragon.

Dude, I just killed 2 without taking a scratch myself. All dragons are different. I have one 20 challenge emissary and a now 243 challenge commander. Klyaxar is NOT Smaug.

The big key are the artifacts that give bonuses vs this or that. How much are those bonuses, exactly? +15? +75? That could be really key, no?

Brad

[Gixxer]

Greetings Warlords,
a really good question, but the answer " is blowing in the wind".
We don't know much about the exact CR of the dragons.
We're only knowing that they are different in strength ( and maybe also in CR ).

The influence of a special artie in a challenge ?

Very difficult to say something about it whitout knowing the strength ( CR ) of the dragon.
I'll try to recalculate it for some dragons. Will take some time !

We're talking about dragons so maybe you're knowing an answer on my question :

Do you know if SCATHA is recruitable ?

Thanks & bye !

Gixxxer

[br_fisher]

Yes, I've personally done it.

[Gixxer]

Yes, I've personally done it.

Greetings Brad,
what do you mean ?

Do you've tried to calculate it or do you have an answer to my question ?

Many thanks !

Gixxxer

[VEO]

Challenging a dragon, huuuh not a good idea.
That's something I've tried before with a char of 250+ ( combat- and comm-arties ), a warrior not a mage.
The warrior was killed.
Daelomin with her poisoned breath killed him before theye were able to dance a bit.

What a "zikke" !

Maybe a mage would have done it a bit better, but my interest in challenging a dragon is very down since I've made this experience.

Thanks and Have Fun !

Gixxx

Gixxer,

When I said I've I just killed 2 I meant via challenge. You must have misunderstood. Note what I've written until now. Dragons are NPC's, just like Daeron, Gandalf, etc. Therefore, each is unique (which means different from each other). Some have challenge ranks under 200. Other's have challenge ranks over 300.

Add up some command artifacts the FP have, give them to a 60 commander, and what do you get? Factor in a 1750 or 2000 sword that has a Secondary Attribute like "bonus vs evil creatures" or "bonus vs dragons" that would add ANYWHERE from +15 to +70 in challenge versuse those creatures. Add in a ring or other command artifact that also gives this secondary attribute, and what is your potential challenge rank? After this character has killed off some of those weak dragons, and done so easily, he steadily gains in his highest skill, and steadily gets more able to challenge and EASILY kill stronger and stronger dragons.

This isn't something I've heard, or something that "seems to make sense". It's something that has been calculated, practiced, and I'm currently doing in this immediate moment.

A mage with a challenge rank of 60 is equal to a commander with challenge rank of 60... The only difference being that both high mages AND mage artifacts are much more precious, so you use a commander. Bain is fun, just for spite, but there are enough FP Regents (and/or better) that a dragon killer isn't just a theoretical possibility, but an absolute must for any decent FP team.

And, always Issue Personal Challenge. Don't Attack, or whatever, using the 285 order.

Brad

[Gixxer]

Greetings Brad,
I've talked about a challenge.
In the end-phase of a game I've challenged Daelomin with a CR of a bit more than 250 and I've lost the challenge.
I've done it because I've heard that a challenge against a dragon is winable, not at this time and not for my warrior.-

Looking on the challenges I've fought, I've got the impression that it is much easier for a mage to kill a CR equal comm.

That's the experience I've made in many, many games.

Have Fun !

Gixxxer

[VEO]

Gixxer,

Scatha is recruitable and a number of artifacts have Secondary Powers like "bonus vs dragons and fell beats" or "bonus vs evil creatures", etc. This information is included on most if not all standard lists within the public domain, I believe - this forum has it's Library, Bobbin's site, etc. Everyone who plays this game really should find themselves this information. Ask some teammates, many players have spreadsheets or text files with all this information (and the riddles, encounter lists, etc).

I'd peg Daelomin as very killable. A challenge in the 200's makes it "about even" against all dragons. Get one of the bonus artifacts to push your Commander over the top.

Brad

[Ed Mills]

Gixxer, since we are buddies now, here is the real 'secret' to fighting dragons. You don't challenge them you respond by ATTACK. This is run like a standard personal challenge. The difference is that if you lose the fight your character survives with one health point 50% of the time.

Likewise, you have that FP 40ish emissary in the mts and he meets a dragon he can not recruit or escape from. The emissary ATTACKs and has a 50% chance of survival with one health point.

Brad is right about the bonus against dragons in some artifacts. If my memory does not fail me, Arthedain starts out with one.

[Gixxer]

Gixxer,

Scatha is recruitable and a number of artifacts have Secondary Powers like "bonus vs dragons and fell beats" or "bonus vs evil creatures", etc. This information is included on most if not all standard lists within the public domain, I believe - this forum has it's Library, Bobbin's site, etc. Everyone who plays this game really should find themselves this information. Ask some teammates, many players have spreadsheets or text files with all this information (and the riddles, encounter lists, etc).


Brad

Thanks Brad,
are you visiting the mentioned sites from time to time ?

Nevertheless, thanks for your answers.

Gixxxer

[VEO]

Thanks Brad,
are you visiting the mentioned sites from time to time ?

Not anymore. Once every 6 months or less. But I relied on them heavily in the "early days". All my personal information is derived from public domain information.

Mind you, I was half suspicious that your question was a trick of some sort, so off I went to Bobbin's page and found artifacts listed as having bonuses vs dragons AND I found the DS recruitable response for Scatha.

So I have to ask you a question: Have YOU gone in search of the answers to your own questions, and if not, why not?

Brad

[VEO]

Challenge from XXXX at 2209
In the Hills & Rough of 2209 a ritual duel began. A large circle was drawn on the paving stones near the market. As the residents of Imladris gathered around, XXXX, a healthy warrior stepped forth and called challenge. In his hands was borne the glowing Sword called XXXX. In answer, Klyaxar, a healthy and immense Dragon appeared! The odds could not be calculated by those watching. The fight began with Klyaxar taking the initiative. Klyaxar cut and slashed while XXXX parried and counterthrust. Suddenly, XXXX slew Klyaxar with a swift feint and thrust, but suffered no wounds.

Just so you know what it looks like.

Brad

[Per Bovbjerg]

I agree with Ed Mills post about choosing to use ATTACK instead of a personal challenge when fighting dragons. Not only do you get a chance of surviving with the famous 1 hit point, but you also get a heap of gold from the encounter, and it seems to me like it works just like a challenge (combat wise).
A challenge is rather uncertain event. I have numerous times won or lost challenges that I shouldn’t, as the challenge difference between the two chars where around 50, so you better prepare for disaster.

Has anyone "experienced" any noticeable difference in taking on dragons using a 2250 combat sword or a 750 combat sword with a bonus vs. dragons? The about 15 times I have seen dragon challenges they all happened with a commander who had Arthedains command artifact with the bonus vs. dragons and a 2250 sword, and a challenge in the 250+, and that seems to work fine most of the time :)

[Gixxer]

Not anymore. Once every 6 months or less. But I relied on them heavily in the "early days". All my personal information is derived from public domain information.

Mind you, I was half suspicious that your question was a trick of some sort, so off I went to Bobbin's page and found artifacts listed as having bonuses vs dragons AND I found the DS recruitable response for Scatha.

So I have to ask you a question: Have YOU gone in search of the answers to your own questions, and if not, why not?

Brad

Hi there Brad,
let's say I have some artifact-and-dragon-lists and I'm always in a need to complete them.
I've tried to find an answer on several web-sides & links.-

I've heard Bobbin's-page is down, so I haven't tried it.

Brad, I'm leading a successfull grudge-team.
I'm doing it besides work, do you ever leat a grudge team ?
It's a lot of work, I can swear you.

For me it was more important to know if the dragon will attack the pop-center.

I've heard so many different opinions about it.

I guess the attack will happen in the case the pop is undefended by armies.-

Next turn we will find it out !

In the case the game will last a bit longer, but I don't think so.
Maybe I'll try to kill a dragon again.


Thank's Brad !

and

Have Fun !

Gixxxer

[VEO]

Brad, I'm leading a successfull grudge-team.
I'm doing it besides work, do you ever leat a grudge team ?
It's a lot of work, I can swear you.

Yes, it is. Best option is to join a team with players better than yourself.. (not difficult for me!)...so you have someone to blame! ;)

Brad

[Gixxer]

Yes, it is. Best option is to join a team with players better than yourself.. (not difficult for me!)...so you have someone to blame! ;)

Brad

Hi there Brad,
looking on your knowledge about killing a dragon, you must have played the one or other game.
I'm sure you will be able to strengthen a team with you knowledge and you're looking for further infomation.
I guess you would be a wellcome player in a team.-

At the moment I don't have a vacant slot in my team, otherwise we could try it out.

Have Fun !

Gixxxer

[VEO]

Someone's not searching very well...