Gunboat Three player Team Game 16 Ended

[tshuiatt]

Cloud Lord/Rhuduar/Witch King checking in.

If you know us, Tony obviously played the Witch King/Rhuduar while I played the CLoud Lord.

Great job by the dark servants overall. Only disappointment was the Dog Lord trio only checked in twice on diplo's. You really hurt your team if you don't communicate at all.

More detailed report coming later, but I really enjoyed the game. Looking to see if anyone else wants to get another three player game going and if the pairings need to be tweaked at all.

In particular, how tough is it to play Northern Gondor/Eothraim/Northmen.

Who else played what pairings.

Sorry we did not remove the bridge at Osgiliath. But we needed to takeout Yezmin by turn 5 as it was the only army defending the North for Harad. At one time, we had 16 Harad/SG/Dun hostages. That had to make the game no fun for that trio.

Tim Huiatt

[Mormegil]

Lost to the Huiatts! The humiliation! :D

Well I shared the SG/Har/Dun trio with Marty and obviously I am quite disappointed by the FP performance.
I think we had a good start against Cor/QA/LR, but when CL attacked North Harad it was clear that we had been hopelessly outnumbered. Still I hoped that CL agent absence from other theatres would give some other FP an advantage. Also I hoped that the character engagement of LR would give the NM a chance to develop, but I never have seen any impact of that.
I never tried to hold NHarad but rather took the offensive to the south. Took the QA capital quite early to avoid a two fronts war. Din & co. have been relatively unsuccessful against my commanders, but my assault was stopped by some dragons in the right moment.I had eliminated the whole Corsair/QA fleet with relatively few losses (thx Sinda for the ships) and burned three Corsair MTs and I think that trio wasn't doing so well, but then the DS character superiority hit home. Har was relocated at 2223 and SG was attacked at his homeland. From t 15 or so it was a slow way down, with many chars held hostage as Tim said. We fought on stubbornly but to no avail.

I must say that it took far too long to remove the northern DS to be any help for us. NO DS nation eliminated by turn 12 usually means the game is lost for the FP. No exception here.
While in the normal GB games, the FP seem to have an edge, the trio game seems to favor the DS, because it allows for a good amount of cooperation and combining of strengths.
Nevertheless, the FP should have been able to exert a bit more pressure on the DS in this game than they actually did. Communication was bad in the first diplos, getting better when it was already too late.
Well played by the DS!

[Banal]

I started the game with NG, EO, NM and asked Kevin (Thavius) to take over the NM early on.

It was a very interesting game for the first 20 turns.

The first sabotage of the Osgiliath bridge (by Ji Indur I assume since he was glowing in the hex) may very well have been the most pivotal moment in the game. The Duns army that ended up sacking Morannon four turns later was set to cross the bridge that turn along with a huge host of NG troops. I think we had the meat to get inside and do bad things, but alas not.

My thanks to the SG/Duns/Harad player for assisting against Mordor - I realize you were hard pressed in the south.

I am curious how or why the northern FP thought we could stand against Mordor past turn 20 without any troops from your nations. For most of the first 20 turns even one or two thousand troops would have made the difference between containment and breaking into the interior.

Hats off to the Dark Servants. Once you got your characters up to speed it turned really ugly, really fast. I was down to 5 characters with one nation and 6 with another. The NM were still going strong but then you turned the Eye on them as well.... Quite impressive to see Huge Rhudaur armies and WK cities in the south. While you may not have seen the impact of the NM in Harad/Corsair land, they were the one nation of the trio that had any substantial character development and had the capacity to take PC's with emissaries as well as to harry the DS's in the south and into the back door, or at least that was the plan.

The strategy for the NG/EO/NM was merely to contain the DS in Mordor until help arrived from the north. That succeeded for 20 turns as well as harrassing their economic development outside of Mordor and on the walls. Unfortunately, that was a fatally flawed plan in the absence of support from the northern FP.

I think that the trio is viable, but either they have to try to knock someone out early (and allow the DS's to flow out into the plains or up to Mirkwood - which is what the Dog Lord tried to do, your welcome - or the FP have to exercise a little better game theory next time.

I might try the tri-nation GB again at some point, but would like to play a one-week game first.

Cheers,

Doug

[mbjohncock]

Hi All

Arth/Card signing in. My friend Martin played Noldo.

I was happy with most of my/our play, but was resigned to the DS winning in the end. As mentioned if the DS don't loose a nation early then they are unlikely to loose. I suspect the FK/IK/BS nation kept large economies to spike the market and that also played a part in keeping the DS rich.

Arth went emmies early, Card a mixture of emmies and coms and Noldo agent and emmies. WK split his cav from foot and marched at Card back lines. We blocked him and captured him from memory, but he chewed up 2 armies 1st. Noldo attacked from Imladris and sent his capital forces east also. His guards captured multiple CL agents trying to hurt my coms. We also had an excellent challenge where I moved com arts to Bondan the lowly C30. He got pc'd by a WK big army com, we won the pc and disbanded the DS army. We took 1910 after that and Rhu were broken beyond repair in the NW by turn 10. We did receive DW and Sinda reserves which were useful in ensuring a rapid death.

Noldo spotted RoW 3018 turn 1 and we were reluctant to send characters so close to Mordor. Tinc was at 3618 so we went for that as we would not ignore our 2 early LaTs. We got tinc, tracked RoW to see who collected it and it was still on the ground turn 5. We moved in and got it just before Gaurhir arrived. Used it a bit in the WK area, but were cautious as the CL had to be given consideration.

The WK was next on the list and he was driven from Angmar by around turn 15. From here Arth cavalry went over the top of the misties and assaulted WK. Took a couple of withered heath pops in the process 2802/2904. The Sinda/NM were active in helping clear out area also.

We dropped a curse learning item and a palantiri off at 2413, but only the curse item was ever collected. Our curse company came on line about turn 14as we moved to reveal 2809. Sinda was already their. Our 1st real character assault was on 4215 which we revealed. Agents cleared the place and with Arth/Noldo emmies it took 3 turns to capture it. From there we moved south. Arth emmies took 3624 and 3422, Card 3724.

Card 1st landing of 3000 toops in N Harad was a disaster. Lack of intel means I run in to a large CL force and get repulsed.

Agents visited a quiet 3622, found some capital characters at 3329 and then went to 2227 to offer SG some respite. We also hid Harad 2223 capital. Someone tried to steal mantle on way out, but Noldo guards killed him. At 2227 Findulas was captured, but Noldo got one of the DS killers and we gave SG some respite.

We cursed Ji and killed heaps of Cors coms. Naval blocks ensured corsairs were kept to minimal late naval activity. We cursed a navy landing and even overran one navy. Card second landing took 2730, 2630 and 2732. The army had just been assassinated though.

Noldo used his secondary agent force to defend vs a Cors/QA minor assault on in the NW. He lost a MT, but we retook it. He killed a DS agent, wounded another and got art 53 from the encounter.

Card had 3400HC, ents and a C155 lead the assault on Mordor. We defeated IK/FK armies and bypassed any block to reach Morannon. From here we captured 3221, bypassed 3222 fort, 2000IK troops and likely a horde of agents. At 3323 we were cursed 2 times. The BS mage killed by the Dun saved me from the expected 3rd cursing. We split and left ents at 3323 with a small army. 2500HC rolled in to 3423 and that is where we ended it. The arts were taken to 2734 where we intened to hire a new army.

Arth had 2700 cavaly come down from the withered heath and fight he BS at 3116. we cleared him and moved to 2320, but were engaged by WK who had taken more NG lands. We had his measure, but he game was now ending

3232 was the new WK capital and but for the hostage situation would have cleared that place. Critical WK coms survived because of our auto kidnap failure. We took 2534 from WK, 2734 was rebelious and we were still here. Noldo curses were back to take 2535. Our hostage count was at 8 when game ended.

2500HI were also at 1615 about to move through the endangered Dun capital

That is a brief summary of my/our game from my perspective.

I was/am saddened by my allies comments. We hid 2223, moved through 2227to protect it, sent some money to our allies, took Tol Burath, Ostigurth, retook Morrannon and offered to build a company with Harad to give him "unlimited pops" as I put it. We moved ws fleets to battle Corsairs and also moved navies down south. For NG we did less, but expected revealing 4215 would help him. We offered to hunt for hostages if names were provided.

In a GB game where CL/WK/Rhu are one player to have cleared the NW by turn 15 vs the highly compitent Huiatt's was I thought a good result. We also took 3 other DS capitals and several MTs besides. Last game with me as WK and Martin as DkLt we smashed Arth and Card, that without the Rhu/CL on the same page.

Look forward to hearing from others. I have reiterated some points, but that is because they are relevent to my defence of a reasonable game. Happy to swap turns with anyone/everyone who wishes to scrutinse my efforts.

Mike

[Spivo]

I played Noldo, along side Mike as Arth/Card.

Was an interesting game, but like someone mentioned, not knocking out a DS early, spells disaster in the end.

One thing that struck us quite early (turn 1-2), was that in 3 nation games FP are seriously hindered when it comes to artifacts.
In 2-nation GB's you compete against DL, Dog/BS and WK/DarkLt, to some extend IK. But none of these comboes can hurt Noldo chars.
In 3 nations, we came to the conclusion that DarkLt/DL/DogLord combo could infact assasinate our chars, AND spot them with scouting. WK/CL combo could kill us as well, and LR/QA/Cor combo could also play a role, and be in a position to seriously hurt us.
So we had to play a lot more conservative, and be very cautious.
Getting Tinc/RoW was, to us, a big win (not enough win to win though...).

Regarding armies, then we decided that Noldo were to focus on chars (camping did not go well for Noldo, so few ressources), while Arth/Card went armies. Seems natural...
Arth was decided to continue to fight the fight against WK/Rhu in the northen mountains. While Card build up to assault Mordor.
It took us a while to bring down Rhudaur/WK, so it wasn't till turn 10'ish that we could really start building up for Mordor. And even then we still had to watch our finances. When we finally hit Harad it was to late, and same for Mordor...

Regarding chars it went very well, but we did make some poor decisions, like hitting 4215, because at that time we should have hit Mordor instead, and gambled, so we could remove preasure from Gondor/EO.

Anyway I had a fun game, and we learned a few things for another game :)

Was fun with the small skirmish with QA up north, me spotting Meriot at my capital saved me a LOT of PC deaths!

[gypo]

i took up control of 12/13 and 20 found three nations quite difficult to run they take up so much time

first congratulations DS

concerning communication i tried to send false infomation once to the free and another i am afraid computer was down and i couldnt get online i was SS this turn. then i asked all along for a curse arty, i started with sickness and weakness spells but desperately needed the arty to be of any use. early on it cost me severly as i had to commit to many important characters for little gain. but thought one would be arriving soon it didn`t.

i started out with the plan of moving on the woodmen quickly but some good moves from mirkwood free and bad timing from me to move up the road from black gate cost me dearly.

the free played a good game all i could do was try to be a pain in the ass as they took capital after capital. in the end you would have knocked at least two of my nations out in the next couple of turns.

but i had just located the one ring my only chance

overall it wasnt a bad game but felt i could of used a little more support from other DS (curse arty desperatly needed should of got message across) couldnt locate one as all mages had moved to weakness activity.

thanks all for a good game

paul roberts

[tshuiatt]

Arth went emmies early, Card a mixture of emmies and coms and Noldo agent and emmies. WK split his cav from foot and marched at Card back lines. We blocked him and captured him from memory, but he chewed up 2 armies 1st. Noldo attacked from Imladris and sent his capital forces east also. His guards captured multiple CL agents trying to hurt my coms. We also had an excellent challenge where I moved com arts to Bondan the lowly C30. He got pc'd by a WK big army com, we won the pc and disbanded the DS army. We took 1910 after that and Rhu were broken beyond repair in the NW by turn 10. We did receive DW and Sinda reserves which were useful in ensuring a rapid death.

I had to comment on this. Great move by you, but we knew(ok, highly suspected) you had the command artifacts on Bondan when you did not refuse challenge the turn before with your cav. Since you had played so well up to that point, we also felt the only way we could survive past turn eight was to win the challenge or get multiple dragons. Not only did we lose the challenge, our dragons didn't show until way to late. Great job your trio did in my opinion.

Tim

[PMauer]

BS/IK/FK checking in.

Must say this game shifted many times.

From turn 0-7 I struggled hard to juggle defending 3221 and Ithil pass.
No bridge being torn down, meant I had to work double hard!

Turn 5 was the turning point when my mages picked up #175, #135, #44 at the same time, which I was then able to send to IK agents who landed on 3024 turn 7, and tore bridge down turn 8 (apparently not one turn to late!!!).

Turn 5 I tried to hold 3221, but shifted attention to Ithil pass (3221 was lost, didn't want to loose FK capital), so on turn 7 I had NG troops at 3224, but was able to win it, and at the same time land IK troops on 3024 which retook it.

Getting NG command arts at 3224 helped me immensely afterwards.

Turn 10 3221 was still standing, and I was able to send a dragon army there to save the day again. But at this point I think DogLord was kinda inactive, so felt it was a lost cause.

Turn 13 or so Dun broke through, but once again a dragon saved Mordor at 3222, and after that it would take 10'ish turns before Mordor was in danger again.


I broke up my focus as in IK having agents, FK having armies/Emmis and BS having mages/emmis.
Btw, I turned over #189 to Herud (DarkLt turn 15), but guess he lost it again.

My emmis proved quite strong, and having NM commanders doubled helped me find his City down in the SE.

Agents got a lot of killings done, but the most fun moment was the "epic" fight at 3929 !!!
I had spotted Dunlands agent names when he hit 3224, and had tracked #4/#45, so I guess he would hit IK capital next and positioned my cursers to kill one agent (my agents were down in SE hitting NM City).
Next turn we all meet at 3929 (I had killed one agent by then), but I forgot to have Hoarm and Gauhir join agent company again (they were scouting NM camp buster army).
So I had no scout!!!
Luckily I had the names from earlier (and some from LA's), and was able to kill/curse most of them. Lost one curse mage (who had most of the curse arts). Got #45 though.
Then next turn I got all my agents gathered and scouted, but failed to find Duns last agent!!!
He then killed Gaurhir, and I now thought I had lost #175 AND my mage arts.
But apparently he couldn't carry more, so #175 was still on the ground :)

Had Dunland had more agents, or had Noldo hit me there as well, I would have lost most of my agents, and arts I think.

I actually thought FP were winning, but guessing NG/EO/NM combo was to crippled to do much.

Think FP did well enough. They allmost broke through Ithil pass, and allmost broke through 3221 turn 7 or so.
Fun game :)

[Mormegil]

Well it looks like this game was a lot closer than I expected. Seems the FP have lost due to a combination of bad coordination and bad luck. That shows how biased your perception can be with only part of the information.
I would like to hear from Sin/DW/WM. I am particularly interested where the DW starting troops from the Iron Hills were sent to.

[Trajan]

I split the QA/LR/Cor trio with two of my friends, Darrel and Chad. We are working on a write-up to put on the board. But, with three heads it takes 10 times as long.

Without comment on the actual write up to come, this format was a blast. Splitting a trio allowed us to have the fellowship of being on a team and able to discuss the game. Yet, it was small enough to not require the time devotion to (and often times headahces from) communication required for a grudge game.

Further, couple this with the gunboat format and it's concomitant fog of war, this game was great.

I have asked the GM to set another game of this format. I hope others will join us.

Mike Bel...

[tshuiatt]

Sounds like the game was a lot closer than I thought it was as the damage our trio cl/wk/rh plus long rider trio was doing to sg and harad could have been overcome.

My vote to the dark servants best player is the fm/bs/ik player as he basically held murder by himself. Most our attention was focused down south against harad.

We made one mistake of thinking the dog lord with his agent artifacts would remove the osgilaith bridge and should done that after the long rider was kind enough to give us a 20 agent artifact.

Sorry about the limited help we provided as you didn't get as much help as you should have.

I am up for another game unless I can get a good grudge game going.

Tim

[Clint]

Hi guys upt you. I followed this game a little to see how it would all pan out. I'm still not convinced the triplets are correct but if you guys are happy then I won't stand in your way.

Clint

[Banal]

Clint, what modifications would you suggest that would still be consistent with the more or less regional groupings?

[Rocklizard]

Hi

I played the Sinda/Woodmen/Dwarf trio and although made an early mistake which cost me the Woodman back-up, recovered reasonably quickly only to have a horrible piece of luck when the Sauron encounter disbanded 2000HI with war machines just as they stepped up to take a defenceless Gundabad on turn 4. It did not fall until turn 9 (the same turn the Dwarves took the Rhudaur capital) but that held up resolution of the North considerably. A Dragon saved Mt. Gram on turn 11, with the WK capital falling to the Arthedain on turn 13 but Mt. Gram only fell to the Dwarves on 16. With hindsight after I failed on turn 11 I should have let the Arthedain/Cardolan finish off the WK and immediately concentrate on Mordor, when we finally took it, we were definitely mob-handed.

I sent the Iron Hills army west to Mirkwood and the Dwarf capital troops to DG, as a result I took DG on 5 and Goblin Gate on 6 - the same turn I re-took 2711 ending DrL resistance in Mirkwood (except for some cat and mouse with a series of new armies from Sarn Goriwing which finally fell on 16 without causing me to lose any PCs).

WK did a good job of harrassing from 2904 and 3002 but these were eventually snuffed out too.

I focussed on coms for the dwarves and sent a large amount of infantry towards Mordor, eventually snuffing out the 10k+ of troops that exited the black gate and finished with significant Sinda and Dwarf armies ready to assault.

Maybe the troops were coming in too late but I definitely think that we gave up too early. I voted no and was shocked by the decision, particularly given that two of the diplos seemed upbeat. I appreciate that the front-line nations bore the brunt but I finished the game with 14 hostages and significant agent and scouting power.

I also had a sick/weakness squad ready to go in a few turns. Gutted not to be playing on.

Would be interested to look at the overall position to see how close it really was please send your turns to mikehornung -at- hotmail -dot- com, I will be happy to distribute back everything that I get.

I would be interested in playing again.

Mike

[Mormegil]

Mike,

I can see that a lot of small things amounted to facts why the help did not come earlier. But I definetely think that the Iron Hill Dwarves should have been directed to Mordor. GG, DG and Gundabad can be handled by the local forces. That could have made the difference.

I understand that you are disappointed that the game ended before you could unfold your full potential. I have made the same experience in several games. But even if some DS nations have been pressed, they were not as close to extermination as the frontline nations were. Harad was, in fact, already out in the last turn.
We have missed the chance of taking out some DS early. There is no way to make up for this in the later game, when the character machinery is running. Alone the fact of how much faster they can replace agents gives them enough edge to win the game.
So yes, the game would have been running for a lot more turns, and probably some successful and interesting turns for your trio, but no, the FP would not have been able to win this.

[Rocklizard]

Looks like this is filling fast with a rumour that Clint is aiming to play too, so if you are thinking of playing again, I suggest that you get an e-mail in to MEGames to reserve your place and then let's discuss whether we are happy with the current trios or wish to make changes.

Cheers,

Mike

[Rocklizard]

Bernd - you could well be correct and aside from the question of the IH Dwarves, this game did not feature my best play. Another factor in the delay was my ruthless extermination of the Misties camps - I felt at the time that the effort was worthwhile but that is another reason why I would like to see the full picture to assess the impact of this.

Mike

[Clint]

Hi guys

Been looking at this and I'm definitely personally interested in playing. Can I put up a proposal for FP change of nations?

DS are fine (IMO)
Wk/Rh/CL
Drg/Dog/Dkl
Ik/Fk/BS
QA/Co/LR

FP suggestion
Nol/Car/Art (as b4)
SG/Har/Sind OR Dun (Excepting NG Sind are a natural choice for the south)
Ng/Dw/Sind OR Dun (Sind are a good regional set-up)
Nm/Eo/Wo (better regional IMO)

I'd probably go with
Nol/Car/Art
SG/Har/Sind
Ng/Dw/Dun
Nm/Eo/Wo

A 3rd option which is okay with me as well but I think strengthens the FP somewhat
Nol/Car/Art
SG/Har/Ng
Sind/Dw/Dun
Nm/Eo/Wo

I think this addresses two of my main concerns
1) Nm/Eo/NG - all the "army" nations in one nation and suspectable to Agents and particularly full on aggression by the DS, including economic pressure.
2) Better variety of nations
3) Somewhat improved regional placement as well, not key.

Any thoughts? Note I've not got any vested interest in any nation trios, as any of you know, I'll play anything... :o So I'll play regardless but feel that the above are worthy of discussion.

Clint (player)

[Clint]

Any thoughts?

Rob's asking me as a GM if there are going to be any changes to the format. As a player I'll play any of the 3 nation formats, but was curious to know if others had feedback.

Clint (player and GM here)

[Banal]

I think we should play the current nations one more time before changing it up. If the FP lose again, I think your third option would be a good solution.

[PMauer]

Oh btw, did it hurt that my cursers first "prime" target was Ringlin? :)

Fun game, can't wait for the next one!

[tshuiatt]

Let's keep the pairings one more game to see how it plays out unless more people want to tweak it

[Trajan]

I concur, keep the triads the same for at least one more game.

Although I played the DS, the FP seemed to be giving at least as good as they got. I feel the Fog of War greatly helped the DS get the concession vote from the FP. Had they have known the nature and extent of each traids gains, they might have voted differently.

Although the DS had just knocked out Harad, it felt like the game was going to take the 50 (or was it 52) turn limit to get full resolution.

I was shocked when the vote came through.

Mike Bel...

[tshuiatt]

Sauron at gundabad was a huge plus for us

It allowed us to leave it undefended so I am glad to see u lost your army as we hoped u would move up to an unexpected saurian encounter

Your concentration on our camps in the misties was annoying but not game changing. Still undecided if the camp busting is worth it.

I think our taking of 2904 and 3002 slowed u down just enough to allow mordor to defend and bring our characters online.

I am not sure why everyone thinks that a dark servant nation has to be eliminated by turn 12 or so. As witch king and rhuduar we were never in danger of getting eliminated as we planned on getting rolled up north and new we would be relocated south. Whomever plays the trio should plan accordingly.

It was fun to make fun of Tony playing as he had seven enemy nations with armies on his pop centers one turn. The turn results were not very favorable that turn. I think hef actually had 10 battles between the two nations in one turn.

Just signed up for another game.

Tim

[Thavius]

I concur, keep the triads the same for at least one more game.

Although I played the DS, the FP seemed to be giving at least as good as they got. I feel the Fog of War greatly helped the DS get the concession vote from the FP. Had they have known the nature and extent of each traids gains, they might have voted differently.

Although the DS had just knocked out Harad, it felt like the game was going to take the 50 (or was it 52) turn limit to get full resolution.

I was shocked when the vote came through.

Mike Bel...

The fog of war also prevented you from seeing how badly you damaged the Eo - NG - Northmen. The Northmen not so much though I had zero defense for whatever you wanted to do to me.

The Northmen gave you (the DS) some great developed pop centers down south (a nice city for one). I had more you were going to take too.

You were systematically taking all the NG pop centers.

I think the Eo and NG may have had 10-12 characters to play between them and no way to get more since you were stealing gold every turn.

The FP were defeated. That was very, very clear from where we were sitiing.

The Eo and NG were a few turns from total collaspe and the Northmen were reduced to irrelevance.

You won - fair and square.

[Banal]

I am signed up and I think there are only two trios left.

[Ulysses212]

Just signed up myself. Looking forward to it. What are the trios, again?

Jason

[Banal]

NG, NM, EO
WM, DW, SE
AR, CA, NE
SG, DU, HA

WK, RH, CL
DrL, DoL, DkL
IK, FK, BS
QA, LR, CO

[Banal]

Also listed numerically and a reminder about the extra round of diplomacy on Turn 1.

DS
11, 14, 24
12, 13, 20
15, 16, 18
19, 17, 21

FP
4, 5, 10
1, 8, 9
2, 3, 6
7, 22, 23

No-Drop Gunboat Format with these additional rules:

1. A diplomacy round on turn 1 and then follow the normal turn 6, 11, etc.

2. A reminder is sent out at the 1 Week mark to help ensure people do not miss turns.

[Ulysses212]

Ok, thanks!

Hmmm. Just wondering if people thought it a good idea put one of the four agent nations in each FP triumvirate (WM, Sindar, Noldor, Duns). It at least gives nations a chance to either protect from crippling 690s in character shortages, or steal back the same turn and hope for balance.

Perhaps in another iteration...

Jason

[Ulysses212]

Err, scratch that. It'd only help the nation with agents on the reverse 690s, but at least you could provide guards.

Age old problem... :D:D

[mbjohncock]

Hi All

Martin and I will again join forces to dominate the world of Middle Earth. Well
actually just a win would be nice. :D

This would be my changes to the Freep alliances if any. I'm happy to play
with the combo as is though.

The Dark seem well suited to support each other. They have some weakness,
but as there alliance won last gme, there is no review.

My thoughts/suggestions which as Ulysses212 says will share the FP agent resources.

North Eastern Middle Earth
Northmen/Dwarves/Woodmen
Location:
Centreing around the lonely mountain these three nations all feature in the
hobbit. The maps are very complimentary and give a good coverage of N/E
Middle earth.
Characters:
A good mix of command, emissary and agent powers. Lack of mages is the
inherent weakness of the FP.
Military:
Their population centres and armies are such that they can support each
other.
Economies:
2 strong, one weak. That is a good balance. Woodmen can expect Dwarves
and Northmen to give financial support.

Central Middle Earth
Notherern Gondor/Eothraim/Sinda Elves
Location:
The three most central nations representing the military might of the FP. The
combined maps cover the exit from Mordor as well as the forward holdings of
the Dragon lord.
Characters:
A definate emphisis on command, but with agent and mage support from the
Sinda elves. Stealthy elves and powerful mages can support the military
nations in those hexes of inevitable conflict.
Military:
The strength of this combination. Enough force to break into Mordor with
nations able to support each other. Capabale of several different campaign styles.
Economies
1 Strong 1 good, 1 hemoraging. Surely enough finance to run a powerful
militay campaign.

Coastal Middle Earth
Harad/Southern Gorndor/Noldo Elves
Location:
All are naval nations and can support each other. THeir maps cover the
coastal waters of middle earth.
Characters:
Powerful Noldo characters and artefacts add a dimension to the military
campaign of your other 2 nations. Agents and big emmies will allow you to
compete with the LR and QA agents. The mantle will help greatly in the defence of Harad.
Military:
Two strong military in SG and the Harad. The Noldo can bring ships into the
war also, adding yet another military dimension.
Economies:
The best of any combination one would imagine. Allies could expect some
money when orders are spare.

Western Middle earth
Artheadin/Cardolain/Dunland
Location:
The 3 Military nations west of the misties. They are all immediate neighbours
to the WK/Rhu and are set for campaigning in the NW.
Characters:
The Dunland agents add the character element to the combinations. Your
high ranked double scout may actually be able to find and stop some of them
CL killers.
Military:
Should have enough to win the war in the north without allied support. It is 3
on 2, with Noldo and Dwarf likely adding nuisance value at least, likely a lot
more.
Economies:
3 solid economies, all capable of runnning their own sustained war.

Just sharing thoughts and ideas.

Mike

[Banal]

I really like the alternative you laid out from regional and improved map coverage perspectives. However, I am worried that it leaves the FP without a 2x scout plus elf nation combo while the DS will have LR/QA in combo still and the Dog, Dragon, Dark Lt's combo has 2x scouts and considerable agent/stealth artifacts and stealthy starting agent characters.

I think we are going to wait for the third instance of this variant before considering changes though.

[pseudiferus]

I like Mike's FP alternatives, and would play any of those combinations...

I don't think the double scout with the Elves is all that necessary...as the DS don't get the double scout with the CL or IK....so this makes it interesting in that sense...

I think putting a "safe" nation like the Noldo with an at risk nation like Harad is a good call. It also gets the Noldo the RoI early...which makes them an instant "threat" from an agent perspective...

I'm game for trying one more variant with current combo's, and if the DS manage to win again, then tweaking the FP combos as necessary...

later

tony

[pseudiferus]

Hi guys

Nm/Eo/Wo (better regional IMO)

I think this addresses two of my main concerns
1) Nm/Eo/NG - all the "army" nations in one nation and suspectable to Agents and particularly full on aggression by the DS, including economic pressure.
2) Better variety of nations
3) Somewhat improved regional placement as well, not key.

Any thoughts? Note I've not got any vested interest in any nation trios, as any of you know, I'll play anything... :o So I'll play regardless but feel that the above are worthy of discussion.

Clint (player)

Clint, I just don't like how weak character-wise this FP combo is. I don't mind splitting NG/Eo up...but keeping them together makes a powerful/combined containment force to deal with Mordor. You're right about the character issues though...

To that end, I'd advocate putting the Sinda with the Eo/NM option. Putting the Dwarves/Woodmen together, with perhaps NG.

You could go DW/NG/Duns as well. And pair the Arth/Cardolan with the Woodmen.

lots a variants....all intriguing in their own rights...

later

tony

[tshuiatt]

I vote we keep the nation trios the same for one more game before tweaking.

Tim Huiatt

[Banal]

I agree.

Doug

[mbjohncock]

A mute point for some.

The game filled super quick and Martin and I find ourselves on the "outer"
for the rematch. It seemed our reply though within hours of request was
not fast enough.

Next time for us maybe? Stupid Aussie time zones...

Good gaming all.

Mike

[gavin]

Well then, I guess you'll just have to jump into the 1 week game to get your fix... :D

[tshuiatt]

Mike,

Very Sorry to see you missed this game. In my opinion you played the best on the free side as you outguessed, outplayed and outmanuevered Tony and I on more than one occasion.

One thing you could have changed, and this is probably a matter of opinion on style as opposed to trying to be a critism is if you had simply let our cav threw and too your backcourt instead of intercepting it, you would have probably lost three or four towns.

However, Tony and I had absolutely no defense if you had pushed forward instead of going back to wipe our cav out. You would have rolled us five turns earlier, at the expense of three or four of your towns. Trust me, you stilled rolled us, but it could have been real ugly real fast for us. And with really high taxes, it allowed us to generate enough revenue too not need money until turn 10.

Well done, bummer you are not in the game.

tim

[Banal]

Mike - sorry to hear the game filled too fast for you. You and Martin can have my spot. Kevin is over-subscribed and can't team with me and I think three nations will be too much. I'll send a note to M.E. Games.

[mbjohncock]

Thanks All

I don't want to force people to leave the game though. Do so only if you
wish. I'll wait to here from Rob as to how it all plays out. Another game is
forming as we speak.

It is however encouraging the gaming community is so forthcoming. This is
the second such offer I've had.

As for the cav slipping through Tim, your point is valid. It took several armies
to clear that cav, where we could have just burned you while you did the
same back. I was worried of threat, improves, assassins forts and the
multitude of options the WK/Rhu/CL has. +100 com, +30 emmy had me
wanting to cover too much.

Others were right that I could have gotten to Mordor quicker though. The
aborted 1st N harad landing was poor. Also my emmies should have not gone
south. Once I flipped 3624. 3422. 3724 I should have hired cav and moved
out. We all live and learn.

Thanks

Mike

[Spivo]

We were impressed at how solid WK combo had burrowed down in the north.

We did get lucky though, got 2 stealth agents right away, which then halted two kidnap attempts by Errenis.

You did get lucky at 3232 WK cap though, we had stacked some nasty agents there, but still failed 2 assas attempts, was anoying :)

Still, this game was very balancing (more than we thought), which I dare say is impressive considering 1 FP combo was basically without chars and 1 DS combo had been SS'd and taken over by someone else.

Sad it was Dun who meet IK agent squad... we tried our best to meet either CL/LR or IK agent company, but with no luck. If the call to quit hadn't come, we would have been spending all our energy to get in such a battle, because the gamble seemed worthwhile, and a win (with curse support) would have won us much ground.

[Banal]

Hi Mike, it is no trouble for me to sit this one out. I signed up primarily because I like the variant and want to see it succeed. But right now I am in 3 other 2-nation gunboats with Kevin and we are signed up for one more and I am signed up for the 1 week game, so another 3 nations right now is probably crossing the border to insaneland.

I just got confirmation from Rob and he has placed me on the list for the next tri-nation (has others already signed up too!).

I look forward to hearing how this one turns out. Go FP! :D

[mbjohncock]

Hi Doug

That is most gracious of you,

I won't overwhelm you with platitudes, although I am truelly greatful. I'm
currently in no games, the peace was killing me. Martin is also appreciative.

I'll diary our turns and you can have read at your convenience.

Kind regards

Mike

[tshuiatt]

Spivo,

We were four turns away from going after your agent company. As we would have had a full curse support squad in four turns as well.

And you did get unlucky at 3232, but you got lucky at 1804 as your agents went first against us as well. Roll of the dice.

And if you caught our agent company before the next four turns, we would have been in trouble.

However, we didn't get stealth until turn 10, but we finally had three stealth agents you probably would not have seen.

Glad to see you in the game. Doug, thanks for letting them in but I will miss playing with/against you again.

Maybe the next game.

tim

[Trajan]

Again, I was part of the QA/LR/Cor triad, where three of us split the nations. I’d like to start our break down at the end of the game, then due a general break down of how we got there. I will start with the end game, and if time permits, publish something in the near future on the breakdown.

The most interesting aspect of the posts so far is how people see things so differently from other sides of the map. I still think this game could have went until the turn limit, and been very painful for all sides.

End of the Game:

We killed 17 FP – 7 SG (Dunsul was via overrun); 7 Harad; 2 Duns; and one of the Dwarves. We serendipitously tripped into the Fuinrauko encounter; thus had a teleporting mage who was a challenge buff. Unfortunately, Din O held an early dull knife, as we passed some arties to Ji Indur to T3.

We held 7 hostages – 5 Harad; and 2 Duns.

We held the following FP starting territories (although if we kept playing, Noldo likely would have 525’ed a few back):

2927 as a City;
2734 as an MT;
2535 as an MT;
2121 as an MT;
2119 as a Town;
1510 as a Town.

Having said that, neither QA nor LR were residing in their original capitals.

We held Noldo’s 0611 as an MT and Sinda’s 2325 as an MT for several turns each. They were both recaptured from us in the last few turns via military force and reduction to Towns.

We held Goblin Gate as a Town for about 10 turns, until it was captured and destroyed.

We held Morannon as a Town with a dragon army through Turn 23, and until the excellently crafted Cardolan evasive HC army of 3000 took it back, then snuck into Mordor.

We had just (on T26) revealed 2212 and were going to move our character siege from the Dun capital to the Dwarven capital.

We held 2328 as an MT on the SG home-field for quite a few turns, before the Duns took it back as a Town, and then we burned it to the ground. Our armies and emis in the SG home-field left a lot of Towns that SG and Harad had to spend militarily retaking.

We had 4, E80+ on the Dun MT at 1918, who were set to 525 then move back to then Dun capital.

Despite claims to the contrary of destruction of the Corsair Navy, we had more ships than we knew what to do with. Plenty of timber was bought, grown and infused from other triads. After having destroyed what we believe to be: 57 SG Warships (knowing they got a hand-off from somewhere – and now we know Sinda); all of Harad’s 26 W.S. & 13 Tr., and Cardy’s 17 W.S., we still ended the game with 12 W.S. & 16 Tr. (calculations could be slightly off due to spells).

The Noldo/Arthy/Cardy triad (which had assassins, cursers and attack emissaries galore) was taking it to us the entire game, starting with the Long Rider capital and then in the South. We tip our hat to how hard you hit us. I’m sure you were cursing our high loyalties in needing at least 3 turns to flip any MT from us. (We had to get at least a little pleasure from whatever frustration we could throw your way – given you were stabbing and cursing as at every turn).

Mike Bel… (LR)